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Podcasting 2.0 for June 5th, 2026, episode 262. PodCleanse. Have

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you been wondering what's going on with podcasting? Well, you

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came to the right place. This is Podcasting 2.0. It's

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where we do the board meeting every single week. In

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fact, we are the only... boardroom that never meets in

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secret. I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the

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Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who holds

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all the power. My friend on the other end, the

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one, the only, Mr. Dave! Please. Meeting in secret is

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way too much trouble. It's cool, man. It's cool. No,

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it's cool. You got to have Chatham House rules. We

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have Chatham House rules, everybody. I don't even know what

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that means. Oh, Chatham. What is Chatham House rules? Well,

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you know what Chatham House is? No. Chatham House is

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basically the UK version of the Council on Foreign Relations.

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Of course it's British. Yeah, of course. And so Chatham

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House, you know, that's where the liberal world order decides

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their rules there. So Chatham House... The international rules-based order

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is what we're talking about. That's where that all takes

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place. And then they give the Council on Foreign Relations

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their marching orders and somewhere the Bilderberg Group comes in

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and the Trilateral Commission. But ultimately, Chatham House. Anything discussed

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at Chatham House may not be discussed outside of Chatham

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House. It's a bit like Fight Club, only with nerds.

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*laughs* And old rich people. Very old rich people and

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weenies. Yes, exactly. It starts at Chatham House, goes to

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the Council of Foreign Relations, then to Bilderberg, and eventually

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it winds its way all the way down to the

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Amp Accords. The Amp Accords. Yes, the Amp. It's real,

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this is uh, this is how things work in the

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kingdom man, so. Uh... You know, I have my, I

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love my robot. My robot is... Don't say that. I

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do. No, I love my... Just find a different way

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to express it. Well, it's a robot. I mean, it's

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just a robot. It's not like... I didn't say I

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love my AI or my chatbot. I said I love

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my robot because my robot... But when you say I

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love my robot, it just makes me think of the

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movie Her or something. Oh, no. Don't do it. Don't

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do it. So my robot is very highly tuned for

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the boardroom. And, you know, it's built all kinds. of

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stringers and agents and it goes out and so it

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brings stuff in that's important. It whispers the entire power

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podcast, brings me back stuff I need to listen to,

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tells me the topics. You know, so I can like

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hang out with my wife while the robot's doing the

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work. And today it was. filled with all kinds of

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little bits and bobs from you and spurlock and like

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oh this is interesting And I've been thinking a lot

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since our last board meeting. Hello, boardroom, by the way.

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Good to see y'all. And then like 15 minutes ago,

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you say, oh yeah, by the way, Spurlock on the

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show today. Which I had missed that email because you

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always copy me on the invite. Our system consists of

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Dave invites somebody and sends out an invite, a calendar

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invite. And if I catch it, then, you know, oh,

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yeah, that's right. So I had to send them out

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a... Does that qualify as meeting in secret? I don't

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think it does. It's not really, no. Okay, no. And

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he's like the perfect guy to round out the trio

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on the show today as we... as we chair the

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board meeting. Because I'm just full of ideas, man. I

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got so many good ideas. And I'm so excited to

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share it with you. I mean, I've got, I got,

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I'm bringing stuff to the table, but if I don't

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want to. You know, I don't want to throw cold

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water on your excitement here, so feel free to share.

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Well, I mean, I have a rundown. Why don't we

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bring Spurlock in? Yeah, he's the kind of guy that

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has nothing to promote. You know, he's rich, independently rich.

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He has a farm or something. I don't know what

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he's doing. He's got livestock. Yeah, Brussels sprouts. Ladies and

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gentlemen, please welcome to the boardroom, the man behind OP.

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From the great state of New Jersey, John Spurlock. Hey,

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guys. Good to be here. Always fun and ready to

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talk about WWDC next week. Yeah. Okay. Wrong podcast. That's

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all I got. Maybe you can go on with those.

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Those Overcast guys, talk about that there. Liquid glass sucks

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so bad! There you go, there's your whole podcast. Hmm.

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Everybody hates liquid glass. Do you hate liquid glass? I've

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actually been out of podcasting for a while. We went

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on a kind of like a week-long trip. And you

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know how it is. It's a great time to kind

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of like... Declare podcast. bankruptcy and live a real life.

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But then you come back and then a lot of

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stuff has happened and so I've been catching up. It's

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very interesting times. Very interesting times we're living in. That's

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called a pod fast, by the way. Pod cleanse. I

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do recommend it, though. It is nice. It is nice,

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everyone. The danger though, there's a lot of danger in

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pod fasting because... Sometimes you find that your life is

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so much better that you don't resume. You don't want

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to go back. Yeah. Well... Really? Do you feel that

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way, Dave? Do you feel that if you stop listening

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and you get back into it? feel that your life

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was better without them? The total hours of podcasts I

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consume. if you charted it on a monthly basis for

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the last five years, has steadily declined. Yes, it has

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been on a downward trajectory. Not precipitous, but a very

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steady downward decline. I like once every five or six

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weeks I drive to Austin honestly to get my hair

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cut and It's only because I'm loyal to the girl

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who's been cutting my hair for 16 years. But man,

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I love, because I don't drive much. I drive to

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HEB, you know, like 10 minutes, eight minutes. So I

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have an hour and a half each way. And I'm

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just like, listen to this and listen to that. And

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then I'm really into it. I'm listening to way more.

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I just, I'm listening to way more audio books than

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podcasts. Cause I don't. Okay, honestly, it's news that I

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just can't tolerate anymore. I'm so tired of the news

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cycle. You don't listen to No Agenda anymore. You just

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skip it. You're done with it. I stopped listening to

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no agenda like two years ago. No, thank you. Because,

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because, um, for this reason, but for the reason that

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I feel special, no, for the reason, uh, the reason

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I stopped listening was that. Okay, this is it. This

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may be an interesting story. Okay. So the reason I

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stopped listening was because... I didn't want... to Here are

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the things you said on No Agenda. so that it

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would then affect my the discussion here valid point so

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i would always avoid So what would happen is I

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would always avoid the Thursday show of No Agenda. Oh,

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okay. Because I was afraid you'd say something that I

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wanted it to be fresh when I heard it on

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Friday. So then that led to, well, sometimes you would

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say something on Sunday. That would bleed through and give

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me ideas and stuff like that. Like, ah, I can't

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do this. So I stopped. listening. all together. And I

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was like, I just, I want to be fresh on

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whatever Adam's thinking process is. Okay. Well, that's good. And

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I understand. I mean, I was just telling pastor Jimmy

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this morning. It's like, I love doing podcasting 2.0 because

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it's really, I mean, yeah. Board meeting, podcasting, blah, blah,

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blah. Really, it's just an opportunity for me to catch

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up with Dave. Yeah, that's really what it is. I

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just want to catch up with Dave, see what's going

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on. Because we used to talk more, you know, like

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on the phone and stuff like that. And then now,

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you know, now this is the time I get to

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talk to you. Yeah, and it would be like, okay,

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you hang up first. No, you hang up first. Remember

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those days. I love you, sweetheart. Bye. Okay, hang up.

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I'm going to hang up now. I'm really going to

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hang up. Yes, here I go. But then, but the

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funny thing that happened though, was that after I stopped

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listening to no agenda for that other reason. I found-

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I now f- find any sort of podcast that has

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news in it is annoying intolerable oh yeah oh yeah

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it is totally intolerable everything is i can't i can't

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even it's hard for me to even listen to this

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week in bitcoin the only reason i i listen to

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it is because i just support chris and yeah everything

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he does that that's still my Guaranteed every week go

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to listen. I don't think I ever miss an episode.

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There's just something about it that I just like it.

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He's using a lot of robots too now for his

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clips. I need to coordinate with him. Y'all should use

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economies of scale. So. John, what's your go-to podcast, man?

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What do you never miss? You know, I was just

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thinking. Pod Save America? I'm into this, it's because I

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listen to hundreds of- Goal hanger? Hundreds, hundreds. So I

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have so many podcasts that I have subscribed to. in

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my Little app that I have here. Oh, that's just,

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you're just helping the podcast industrial complex with your auto

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download. I mean, that's not doing anything. Well, actually, so

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I'm still using an app that I did a while

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ago to learn SwiftUI back in the day. And it

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doesn't auto download anything. So when it comes in, I

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do an initial swipe. You know, and most I swipe

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away. Nope, not it. So they're actually getting from me.

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whether or not I actually intend to listen. And once

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I download, I pretty much do eventually listen to. Very

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few auto downloads from me, but I actually get this

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question all the time because you say you work in

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podcasting and the first question is something like... Is that

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your pickup line? Hey, baby. I work in podcasting. I'm

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big in podcasting. If they say, what are your top

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three podcasts? And I have no, you know, you can't

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answer something like that. People ask me that all the

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time. And another one is, what's your favorite song of

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all time? What's your favorite music video? Yeah, you should

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have something, something ready for that. Alba, Alba, dancing queen.

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Come on, man. I heard, I finally, I saw a

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good trick the other day. There was a karaoke thing

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going on. And someone picked tequila. And I was like,

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that's genius. The whole time you're just sitting there watching

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this person dance and then they say one word. This

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is a perfect karaoke song. Tequila. So I need an

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equivalent of that for a podcast. Like, what's my favorite?

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Podcasting 2.0, clearly. Obviously. Did you get any on you,

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Dave? I'm going to wipe it off here. That's why

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we were at the Black Label Society concert. He's like,

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you know what my favorite city is? Nashville. Of course.

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What city are we in tonight? I mean, at the

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risk of turning this into this weekend AI, I am

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interested, like, have you done anything, Adam, on the client

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side of things? Like, do you have your robot go

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out and... sift through your podcast and say like, Hey,

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just give me the. Sort of important bit. on the

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listening side because I could see that being useful once

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you start trusting it. What I did is, and I

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have other things to talk about, but I will tell

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you this. There's this site called BingIt.io, which redirects to

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noagenda.clipgenie.com. And, uh... Dean, who set that up. He has

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all the episodes, all the transcripts, all the clips, all

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the show notes, and he's run some AI stuff robot

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over it. And it's a search engine. So if you

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go in there and you search for something, then it'll

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say, okay, here's the relevant no agenda. episodes and you

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can listen to you can listen to because we publish

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all the clips so he has the clips you can

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click on the articles but you can also just in

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the transcript click on it, and then you hear that

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part of that show, which is fun because, you know,

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some of it is like really bad quality. It's 15

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years old. So I hooked that into the robot. So

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I said, look, here's a five-hour Senate confirmation hearing. go

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and find clips in this and measure it against the

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corpus of everything we've done for the past 18 years.

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So it'll go back and it'll find things that we

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said. previously so it gets kind of an idea of

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the attitude that we had about it and then it

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knows what what more or less it knows what I

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want from a clip out of it And it'll make

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a series of three to five clips I mean, not

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bad. Now that's still on the production side, but anything

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on the personal listening side where it's like, there's too

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many podcasts I need. I need help. Anything like that?

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No. I think an app would probably be the best

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helper there. Exactly what I said. Pod News Weekly Review.

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I don't always have time to listen to it just

233
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because of my schedule when it comes out and then

234
00:13:56,418 --> 00:14:02,232
stuff I'm doing Friday morning. So the workflow is. Find

235
00:14:02,273 --> 00:14:05,029
out what's going on find out what pieces correspond to

236
00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:07,660
what i already wanted to talk about or what dave

237
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,492
and spurlock and whatever's going on on no agenda on

238
00:14:10,512 --> 00:14:16,106
podcast index.social And then it'll highlight those for me And

239
00:14:16,146 --> 00:14:18,478
then I go into the podcast app and I hit

240
00:14:18,518 --> 00:14:21,755
those chapters. So it's kind of doing a couple of

241
00:14:21,775 --> 00:14:24,935
things for me. So that is indeed on the client

242
00:14:24,975 --> 00:14:29,838
side. Yeah, I've actually been really surprised with how often

243
00:14:29,878 --> 00:14:33,324
I use transcripts. And I use them primarily through Apple

244
00:14:33,344 --> 00:14:36,930
Podcasts. So, like, yesterday I was listening to the catching

245
00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:40,416
up on the AMP stuff. Yes! And I have to

246
00:14:40,476 --> 00:14:44,403
say, like, they did put out two... fairly informative episodes

247
00:14:44,483 --> 00:14:48,732
on what they're doing. Although their site wasn't great, they

248
00:14:48,752 --> 00:14:50,615
did talk about it. They have a podcast? Yeah, they

249
00:14:50,655 --> 00:14:53,842
have two podcasts. I subscribe to it. And they did

250
00:14:53,882 --> 00:14:58,551
lay it out rather well. Who is they? Oxford Road.

251
00:14:58,571 --> 00:15:02,239
This is Oxford Road's thing, right? I've had a lot

252
00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:04,325
of thoughts about this and I'm glad that you took

253
00:15:04,385 --> 00:15:07,052
us right there into the amp thing. So the way

254
00:15:07,132 --> 00:15:09,840
I understand it, let's just skip the definition of a

255
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,209
podcast for a second. Um, and, and I will come

256
00:15:13,249 --> 00:15:18,376
back to that. So in essence, they have... come up

257
00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:24,851
with a new measurement guidelines. And... The measurement guidelines are

258
00:15:25,751 --> 00:15:29,090
Pretty simple. I mean, in fact, I feel that they

259
00:15:29,473 --> 00:15:33,504
really made a huge mistake. By saying, okay, a play

260
00:15:33,585 --> 00:15:36,983
is 30 seconds of content played, audio or video, once

261
00:15:37,063 --> 00:15:40,941
per user per session. than the number of unique users

262
00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:43,421
who had a podcast. I'm not quite sure what that

263
00:15:43,482 --> 00:15:46,608
means should have been unique anyway it seems like something

264
00:15:46,628 --> 00:15:50,536
wrong with that sentence an ad impression a commercial begins

265
00:15:50,736 --> 00:15:53,762
playing for the user these are very specific words and

266
00:15:54,002 --> 00:15:57,730
add audience the number of users exposed to an ad

267
00:15:57,790 --> 00:16:00,095
impression which sounds like a guy in a in a

268
00:16:00,195 --> 00:16:03,006
dark alley opening up his coat like Hey, look at

269
00:16:03,046 --> 00:16:09,212
this ad. Are you impressed? I was exposed. I was

270
00:16:09,292 --> 00:16:13,020
just, I was thinking about this. I mean, let's just

271
00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:16,147
talk about that first. What is, because you, both you

272
00:16:16,207 --> 00:16:18,131
and Dave were going back and forth on the, on

273
00:16:18,151 --> 00:16:21,479
the mastodon. What is, what is your initial thoughts about

274
00:16:21,539 --> 00:16:27,034
this? about these measurements. Again, I try to look past

275
00:16:27,094 --> 00:16:29,164
the marketing side, which is clearly a marketing side for

276
00:16:29,204 --> 00:16:31,576
the Rocks Road Road. And if you listen to their

277
00:16:31,616 --> 00:16:34,692
podcast, the 12 people that they have on the... on

278
00:16:34,712 --> 00:16:36,760
the group are folks that work with Oxford Road, right?

279
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,374
And they are ad buyers and networks. And I think

280
00:16:40,414 --> 00:16:42,464
there's a guy from Libsyn on there as well. And

281
00:16:42,484 --> 00:16:44,494
they had their own summit and they picked 12 people

282
00:16:44,535 --> 00:16:46,263
to be part of the secret group. I have no

283
00:16:46,485 --> 00:16:50,511
clue why they decided to really. go gung-ho on the

284
00:16:50,551 --> 00:16:54,260
secret route. Multiple times they're like, oh, we've been doing

285
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:55,684
this in secret. I don't know if they think that's

286
00:16:56,105 --> 00:16:58,732
a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's

287
00:16:58,752 --> 00:17:04,249
Chatham House. It's Chatham House vibe. More, uh... exclusive or

288
00:17:04,489 --> 00:17:06,373
I don't know. No, no, I think it means that

289
00:17:06,453 --> 00:17:09,478
we didn't believe me. I know how Chatham House people

290
00:17:09,538 --> 00:17:12,343
think. And these to me are Chatham House people. They're

291
00:17:12,523 --> 00:17:16,390
thinking, you know, we did this. We really got together

292
00:17:17,131 --> 00:17:20,778
and, you know, and we were underground and we didn't

293
00:17:20,798 --> 00:17:24,112
have any outside. influences and so this was the best

294
00:17:24,172 --> 00:17:26,323
way to do it so we didn't have anyone pushing

295
00:17:26,363 --> 00:17:28,896
or pulling at us which reminds me of the movie

296
00:17:28,976 --> 00:17:32,847
by Danny Kaye I think it is A Song is

297
00:17:32,948 --> 00:17:37,989
Born. Gotta look that up. And it's a bunch of

298
00:17:38,412 --> 00:17:42,848
professors and they go down in secret. for years to

299
00:17:42,908 --> 00:17:47,125
write the definitive encyclopedia of music. And as they're ready

300
00:17:47,145 --> 00:17:49,370
to publish, they come out and they're, here we are,

301
00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:53,400
we're ready to go public with our encyclopedia, and jazz

302
00:17:53,460 --> 00:17:56,087
happened. And they completely missed that. And they're like, what

303
00:17:56,147 --> 00:17:59,094
is going on? What happened to music? It's a great

304
00:17:59,154 --> 00:18:04,806
movie. And so... I think that that was well-intended more

305
00:18:04,966 --> 00:18:07,271
as a, we were serious, you know, we put our

306
00:18:07,311 --> 00:18:10,598
time into it. That's what I think that is. It

307
00:18:10,658 --> 00:18:14,545
was a bit of marketing, but I, I don't think

308
00:18:14,605 --> 00:18:17,852
it's nefarious per se. And there are three, three of

309
00:18:17,872 --> 00:18:20,277
the members that aren't comfortable with being listed even. So

310
00:18:20,317 --> 00:18:22,281
that, that goes to the. you know, we have to

311
00:18:22,301 --> 00:18:24,445
be sensitive as far as a lot of the decision

312
00:18:24,485 --> 00:18:28,113
makers aren't in that group. So if a company is

313
00:18:28,133 --> 00:18:30,998
signing up to some of these proposals, they may not

314
00:18:31,259 --> 00:18:33,604
even be able to make the decision within the company

315
00:18:33,664 --> 00:18:36,369
itself. Yeah. But I honestly just want to look at

316
00:18:36,429 --> 00:18:39,015
it as a, and I think I tried to say

317
00:18:39,055 --> 00:18:41,219
this yesterday in the group, is just look at it.

318
00:18:41,199 --> 00:18:44,666
from what they have proposed and I'm really allergic to

319
00:18:44,726 --> 00:18:47,832
all these, especially what happens with software now. Not proposed,

320
00:18:47,872 --> 00:18:50,057
they ratified, let's just be clear. They have with no

321
00:18:50,097 --> 00:18:53,964
dissenting votes. But the stuff they've produced, right? Like what

322
00:18:54,004 --> 00:18:56,429
is actually there today? And there's not a lot and

323
00:18:56,529 --> 00:18:59,836
they say as much. Personally, I'm really sick and tired

324
00:18:59,856 --> 00:19:03,744
of software companies. pre-announcing things, right? So I will, I'll

325
00:19:03,764 --> 00:19:05,948
try not to pre-announce things, right? And say, it's coming,

326
00:19:06,008 --> 00:19:07,651
it's coming in three months. No, if you have it,

327
00:19:08,273 --> 00:19:11,699
you know, there's so much stuff out there, let's limit

328
00:19:11,719 --> 00:19:14,465
the news to like actual news. But I mean, the

329
00:19:14,485 --> 00:19:17,431
definitions that they've laid out, I think it's useful as

330
00:19:17,852 --> 00:19:20,798
a starting point for discussion. Like I, ultimately I think

331
00:19:20,838 --> 00:19:24,449
what they want is... that the players would somehow... feel

332
00:19:24,529 --> 00:19:26,900
that there's, and this is why I went back into

333
00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:29,592
the transcript. I wanted to know their exact language because

334
00:19:29,914 --> 00:19:31,401
it's like, they used a great word. I couldn't remember,

335
00:19:31,421 --> 00:19:36,539
but they want to hasten the demand. for this idea

336
00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:37,991
right so they want to get it out in the

337
00:19:38,031 --> 00:19:41,496
world and sort of make it more apparent that this

338
00:19:41,537 --> 00:19:43,266
is a problem for some people. This is a problem

339
00:19:43,307 --> 00:19:46,554
for people that are in the advertising business and podcasting

340
00:19:46,635 --> 00:19:52,624
when they comparatively are using podcasting as a channel in

341
00:19:52,664 --> 00:19:54,988
relation to other channels, right? So there's certain things that

342
00:19:55,449 --> 00:19:58,053
podcasting can give you and then there's some metrics that

343
00:19:58,314 --> 00:20:03,143
it can't. And so they're hitting these problems. fully agree

344
00:20:03,183 --> 00:20:05,461
there's probably people that have these problems and it's just

345
00:20:05,501 --> 00:20:07,255
more of a way for them to get it out.

346
00:20:07,707 --> 00:20:10,092
and into the world and make sure that other people

347
00:20:10,112 --> 00:20:12,878
know about it. So in that respect, I don't have

348
00:20:12,938 --> 00:20:14,421
a huge problem with it. I do think it's going

349
00:20:14,441 --> 00:20:16,946
to be hard, like, do they have Apple on board

350
00:20:16,986 --> 00:20:18,910
with this? Do they have YouTube? Ultimately, they want Apple,

351
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:22,176
YouTube, and Spotify to agree to these numbers. are these

352
00:20:22,237 --> 00:20:26,200
metrics and I'm not sure. Why they would do that

353
00:20:26,561 --> 00:20:28,790
ever or why they would do that now? Oh man,

354
00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:32,363
because that is what always happens in podcasting. When Dave

355
00:20:32,423 --> 00:20:38,594
and I started this... August of 2020. Apple's never going

356
00:20:38,614 --> 00:20:40,780
to do it. Never going to do it. If you

357
00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:43,285
don't get them on board, it's not going to happen.

358
00:20:43,606 --> 00:20:48,015
We've been hearing that for 10 years. 10 years. And

359
00:20:48,075 --> 00:20:51,443
now we are 16 years into the Apple. If Apple

360
00:20:51,483 --> 00:20:54,409
doesn't do it, it won't happen. It's not important. Blah,

361
00:20:54,429 --> 00:20:57,905
blah, blah. And what you see is Apple now does

362
00:20:57,966 --> 00:21:01,382
stuff kind of without even asking. asking anybody, you know,

363
00:21:01,403 --> 00:21:05,551
whoa, okay, we'll do HLS video. So it's still just

364
00:21:05,611 --> 00:21:09,518
as pathetic as it always was. And on the secret

365
00:21:09,579 --> 00:21:13,186
WhatsApp group, are you in that, John, the WhatsApp group?

366
00:21:13,206 --> 00:21:15,410
I am, yes. I think I know the one you're

367
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:18,757
talking about. Secret, by the way. The hilarious part is

368
00:21:18,797 --> 00:21:21,972
there's a secret WhatsApp. group complaining about the secret amp

369
00:21:22,012 --> 00:21:26,711
group and nice and in the group it's like Their

370
00:21:26,771 --> 00:21:30,555
solution is to yammer about it. Oh, we need to

371
00:21:30,615 --> 00:21:35,685
invite more people into the group. And I love this.

372
00:21:35,705 --> 00:21:37,520
I hope they never kick me out. I love this

373
00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:40,680
group because I am a WhatsApp user because of... friends

374
00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:43,867
in Europe. And I just, you know, it's on mute.

375
00:21:44,027 --> 00:21:46,412
So I just go in and look at it every,

376
00:21:46,432 --> 00:21:48,015
every, you know, a couple of times a day to

377
00:21:48,035 --> 00:21:50,480
see what's going on. And it's like, okay, we need

378
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,724
to get so-and-so in. Yeah, we got so-and-so in. Well,

379
00:21:52,745 --> 00:21:55,129
how come they didn't do that? I'd be like, blah,

380
00:21:55,149 --> 00:21:57,883
blah, blah, blah, blah. I guess this group isn't Chatham

381
00:21:57,903 --> 00:22:00,978
House Rules, then, huh? It's totally Chatham House rules. In

382
00:22:01,038 --> 00:22:06,115
fact, listen to this. I think this is from Cridlin

383
00:22:06,195 --> 00:22:10,032
explaining the rules. We don't quote from this group, even

384
00:22:10,092 --> 00:22:13,435
me. And Apple has threatened to pull my arms and

385
00:22:13,495 --> 00:22:15,686
legs off for something I've written on here in the

386
00:22:15,726 --> 00:22:19,842
past, so there are eyes here. So there's also spies

387
00:22:19,923 --> 00:22:22,524
in the group. I mean this is... Oh that's great!

388
00:22:22,865 --> 00:22:30,694
That's great! Look, I will... Please, nobody has ever asked

389
00:22:30,754 --> 00:22:32,259
me to be a part of any of these groups.

390
00:22:32,299 --> 00:22:35,490
I've never gotten an invite to them. Do not ever

391
00:22:35,690 --> 00:22:38,319
ask me because the answer is no. I hate this.

392
00:22:38,299 --> 00:22:45,081
crap i'm completely allergic to all secret groups do not

393
00:22:45,161 --> 00:22:50,516
even bother it's a it nothing gets me I mean...

394
00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:55,906
Nothing gets me more. irritated than a bunch of secret

395
00:22:55,947 --> 00:23:00,645
groups ma- making a bunch of decisions that has zero

396
00:23:00,665 --> 00:23:03,271
visibility. Well, they make no decisions. And they're just presenting

397
00:23:03,371 --> 00:23:07,259
it to the world as if it's somehow legitimate. I

398
00:23:07,339 --> 00:23:10,887
can't see, if I cannot follow your, if I cannot

399
00:23:10,967 --> 00:23:14,773
follow the trail of logic. that shows how you came

400
00:23:14,853 --> 00:23:18,500
to a decision, your decision is completely worse. to me

401
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,573
it's it is a very guilty pleasure of mine because

402
00:23:24,653 --> 00:23:27,779
i'm sure it's fun to watch because i've never never

403
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:30,024
been invited to these groups this is the first one

404
00:23:30,064 --> 00:23:31,927
i was actually invited to there may have been a

405
00:23:32,068 --> 00:23:36,256
slack group at some point that todd cochran rip that

406
00:23:36,296 --> 00:23:39,344
todd cochran invited me to but you know I've lost

407
00:23:39,445 --> 00:23:41,411
slack a long time ago I don't know what's going

408
00:23:41,491 --> 00:23:45,704
on but WhatsApp is something I'm still in now to

409
00:23:45,764 --> 00:23:52,059
me this is this is like I want to compare

410
00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:57,820
this to the secret group, to the... Uh, to the...

411
00:23:58,179 --> 00:24:01,776
Topic being discussed of HTTP signing, which we'll talk about

412
00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:09,920
later. In public, in the GitHub. Discussions. And you can

413
00:24:10,181 --> 00:24:14,602
see everybody's point of view and everyone is arguing for

414
00:24:14,683 --> 00:24:18,918
their side, everyone and presenting their arguments. It is a

415
00:24:19,101 --> 00:24:27,268
completely transparent. Above board. Open participation discussion. Yeah, I can't

416
00:24:27,308 --> 00:24:31,038
handle those. I can't handle those. If the goal of

417
00:24:31,078 --> 00:24:33,826
the AMP folks was to, and again, it's hard as

418
00:24:33,886 --> 00:24:35,851
a tech person to not hear AMP and then hear

419
00:24:35,931 --> 00:24:38,799
Google's, I don't know, Dave, if you remember AMP's sort

420
00:24:38,819 --> 00:24:43,738
of... Oh, I spent a lot of time making support

421
00:24:43,778 --> 00:24:46,882
for AMP back in the Freedom Controller and on different

422
00:24:46,942 --> 00:24:50,968
websites, and then Google rug pulled it. No, it's not

423
00:24:51,028 --> 00:24:53,672
a thing. But if the goal was to get everyone

424
00:24:53,732 --> 00:24:56,196
talking about it, I think they've succeeded, right? Everyone knows

425
00:24:56,276 --> 00:25:00,104
who Oxford Road is now. Everyone knows. the their definitions

426
00:25:00,285 --> 00:25:02,902
and honestly i think that's a good starting point like

427
00:25:02,983 --> 00:25:06,262
if the Apps are all trying to not coordinate. They're

428
00:25:06,282 --> 00:25:09,512
competing. But if they all want to choose a common

429
00:25:09,552 --> 00:25:11,678
definition, at least now they have something to work with.

430
00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:14,086
And if people have a problem with it, you know,

431
00:25:14,507 --> 00:25:16,513
they'll get it. I'm sure they'll hear about it. So

432
00:25:16,533 --> 00:25:18,519
I don't have a huge problem with it. It's once.

433
00:25:18,591 --> 00:25:22,697
It's once they come out with actual technology and actual

434
00:25:22,797 --> 00:25:26,362
sort of ramifications or changes that need to happen to

435
00:25:26,382 --> 00:25:29,186
the ecosystem. I don't honestly see that happening. I think

436
00:25:29,206 --> 00:25:32,090
this is more of a, hey, we're getting client stats

437
00:25:32,150 --> 00:25:34,914
now from Apple and from Spotify and from YouTube, and

438
00:25:34,934 --> 00:25:37,438
they're completely different, and we'd like them to be similar.

439
00:25:37,478 --> 00:25:40,225
That's it. Okay. Thank you. Now I need to tell

440
00:25:40,266 --> 00:25:44,917
you what I've been thinking about. Because, man, I went

441
00:25:44,977 --> 00:25:48,207
down a long memory road of how all things came

442
00:25:48,307 --> 00:25:51,737
to be. And the first thing I want everyone in

443
00:25:51,777 --> 00:25:56,691
the boardroom to understand that we have incredible, we are.

444
00:25:57,015 --> 00:25:58,734
We are in fact, we are meek. You know how

445
00:25:58,754 --> 00:26:01,294
the meek will inherit the earth? We're meek in the

446
00:26:01,334 --> 00:26:04,478
way that's not weak. We're meek in a way that

447
00:26:04,518 --> 00:26:07,658
we have power that we kind of keep under the

448
00:26:07,738 --> 00:26:11,335
hood. You know, like you've got. You got a V8.

449
00:26:12,379 --> 00:26:15,129
You got a huge blower that you don't see, but

450
00:26:15,149 --> 00:26:18,186
then when you step on that thing, it just... This

451
00:26:18,287 --> 00:26:20,959
is what this group is, and I will remind everybody.

452
00:26:21,411 --> 00:26:25,157
That when we were told, Apple will never do this,

453
00:26:25,278 --> 00:26:28,383
Apple will never do that. What happened? Apple did transcripts.

454
00:26:29,505 --> 00:26:34,053
Chapters became a thing. The funding tag, person tag, location

455
00:26:34,113 --> 00:26:38,132
tag. I know we're on the fringe, but still. We

456
00:26:38,192 --> 00:26:42,722
have incredible power just by doing what we do and

457
00:26:42,802 --> 00:26:48,354
not writing blogs about it and announcing stuff and meeting

458
00:26:48,434 --> 00:26:51,581
in secret. This is the most non-secretive group we've ever

459
00:26:51,681 --> 00:26:57,184
had. And we don't give ourselves credit for it. I

460
00:26:57,224 --> 00:26:59,250
just need to preface this by saying I have been

461
00:26:59,290 --> 00:27:02,420
in the advertising business for a long time. I've been

462
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,466
out of it for a long time, but I've been

463
00:27:04,527 --> 00:27:09,909
in radio, television, web. podcasting. I built a company. I

464
00:27:09,949 --> 00:27:12,961
took it public way too early. Didn't get rich off

465
00:27:13,001 --> 00:27:17,097
of it. Did okay. We had $450 million in revenue.

466
00:27:17,218 --> 00:27:22,340
I built. big websites for Reebok, for Budweiser, for Continental

467
00:27:22,420 --> 00:27:26,859
Airlines, for tampons, tampax actually, the website you'll visit more

468
00:27:26,899 --> 00:27:29,615
than once a month. I did all of these things.

469
00:27:30,117 --> 00:27:31,902
I've been on the buy side. I've been on the

470
00:27:31,942 --> 00:27:37,218
sell side. At MTV, I brought Budweiser onto the channel,

471
00:27:37,298 --> 00:27:40,306
which... make no mistake, was spring break was not because

472
00:27:40,366 --> 00:27:42,150
we thought it would be cool to do spring break.

473
00:27:42,191 --> 00:27:46,481
No, Budweiser. We said, Budweiser, everyone's drinking beer there. We'll

474
00:27:46,521 --> 00:27:48,847
make sure it's Budweiser. We'll put big bottles on the

475
00:27:48,907 --> 00:27:51,594
stage and you'll be that and bring that stupid dog.

476
00:27:51,854 --> 00:27:54,701
We'll do the Bud Light thing with Spuds McKenzie. I've

477
00:27:54,721 --> 00:27:58,666
done all of that. What I'm going to propose here

478
00:27:58,706 --> 00:28:02,700
will piss everybody off except for the advertisers. And will

479
00:28:02,741 --> 00:28:07,153
actually have a huge benefit for podcasters. I'm loosely calling

480
00:28:07,214 --> 00:28:15,093
it... PCDC. The Podcast Data Collective. Is it a secret?

481
00:28:15,724 --> 00:28:18,783
It's not a secret. Okay. And the reason why I'm

482
00:28:18,823 --> 00:28:21,949
happening, collective. I'm just, it's a collective. We're a collective.

483
00:28:21,969 --> 00:28:25,196
We're, you know, what is podcasting 2.0? It's a bunch

484
00:28:25,256 --> 00:28:29,004
of misfits. You know, we have, we do band every

485
00:28:29,465 --> 00:28:32,330
week. Someone shows up with a banjo. We got a

486
00:28:32,371 --> 00:28:36,038
guy playing spoons, a washboard. We got five drummers, you

487
00:28:36,419 --> 00:28:40,254
know. We got 18 bass players and one guy shredding.

488
00:28:40,455 --> 00:28:47,734
We're a very weird group. statistically, the relevance of the

489
00:28:47,835 --> 00:28:52,789
podcast app developers, and this is a crazy situation in

490
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:57,318
all media. It has always been. the radio station, the

491
00:28:57,378 --> 00:29:02,577
TV station, the website. Who? get the advertising. They get

492
00:29:02,657 --> 00:29:05,127
a piece of the advertising and whether they share that

493
00:29:05,167 --> 00:29:09,042
with content producers or not is irrelevant. It's always gone

494
00:29:09,122 --> 00:29:13,882
through the transmission stations. Now, in podcasting, that turned out

495
00:29:13,942 --> 00:29:17,327
a little bit differently. The hosting companies... who by the

496
00:29:17,387 --> 00:29:20,805
way are the ones actually making money. who do not

497
00:29:20,846 --> 00:29:27,766
support directly any podcast apps. The podcast apps, it's very

498
00:29:27,806 --> 00:29:30,035
much like Dave and Adam. We've been doing this for

499
00:29:30,075 --> 00:29:33,148
six years. Haven't put a penny in my pocket. Love

500
00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:36,636
doing it. Love doing it for podcasting. feel that it's

501
00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:39,522
important as a contribution to the world, and we get

502
00:29:39,603 --> 00:29:42,269
enough value for value in so we can keep it

503
00:29:42,329 --> 00:29:45,516
going. I don't think there's many app developers, keeping Marco

504
00:29:45,576 --> 00:29:48,883
aside, who are really living off of any of this

505
00:29:48,923 --> 00:29:52,972
stuff. So there's a discrepancy and a break in the

506
00:29:53,032 --> 00:29:55,037
system. And where last week I said you need to

507
00:29:55,057 --> 00:29:58,686
cut us in on the advertising, revenue, I've changed my

508
00:29:58,726 --> 00:30:04,460
thinking. Statistically, the independent app ecosystem, and John, you'll have

509
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:08,430
to jump in, is probably about, I think we can

510
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:12,701
claim 8% to 10% of overall listening apps. Is that

511
00:30:12,761 --> 00:30:17,740
a fair number? Uhhhh... yeah that's a good ballpark so

512
00:30:17,841 --> 00:30:19,397
i'm just going to keep it at 10 to keep

513
00:30:19,458 --> 00:30:23,826
it simple When you have a 10% number in advertising,

514
00:30:24,268 --> 00:30:30,589
statistically, that is more than enough to make very... informed

515
00:30:31,033 --> 00:30:37,160
decisions about your advertising money. If The data collective, if

516
00:30:37,261 --> 00:30:41,075
we collectively, just like we did with transcripts, just like

517
00:30:41,135 --> 00:30:45,216
we did with chapters, if we all start supporting. An

518
00:30:45,457 --> 00:30:50,304
aggregation of follows, plays per episode, and completion rate by

519
00:30:50,404 --> 00:30:57,410
time. and we publish those. per podcast. I mean, initially

520
00:30:57,470 --> 00:30:59,535
maybe a top 10 or whatever it is, but we

521
00:30:59,776 --> 00:31:04,047
make these numbers available. So anybody can, any advertiser can

522
00:31:04,107 --> 00:31:08,217
go to podcastindex.org. And I'm saying it should be us

523
00:31:08,257 --> 00:31:12,354
because I'm pretty sure people trust us. the app developers.

524
00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:15,600
I know they trust Dave. They can trust me. far

525
00:31:15,641 --> 00:31:18,360
as they can throw me probably but my track record

526
00:31:18,401 --> 00:31:22,086
shows I haven't screwed anybody in business If we publish

527
00:31:22,107 --> 00:31:25,270
these, these would be real numbers. So you can actually

528
00:31:25,431 --> 00:31:28,850
see. Who, if you look at a podcast and go,

529
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:31,844
well, how about this episode? Well, here's how many people

530
00:31:31,884 --> 00:31:36,062
listen to it by pressing play. Here's... how far the

531
00:31:36,102 --> 00:31:38,369
percentage of people who made it all the way through

532
00:31:38,409 --> 00:31:42,421
or listen to where your ad placement was or whatever

533
00:31:42,441 --> 00:31:44,627
reason, it can be many reasons to want to know

534
00:31:44,667 --> 00:31:49,199
how long somebody listened. If we publish that, initially publish

535
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,563
it. and make that available, we will become the de

536
00:31:53,584 --> 00:31:59,065
facto... We will become... The source of truth. Matthew 5,

537
00:31:59,085 --> 00:32:01,450
6 came up for me today. Blessed are they which

538
00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:04,056
do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be

539
00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:07,583
filled. I believe in this. I believe that if we

540
00:32:07,684 --> 00:32:11,211
publish these numbers from the independent apps at 10% of

541
00:32:11,251 --> 00:32:15,815
the ecosystem, that at a certain point, we... collectively can

542
00:32:15,835 --> 00:32:20,790
monetize that data. Not by selling ads, but the first

543
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:24,638
customers probably should be the hosting companies. Okay, hosting company,

544
00:32:25,139 --> 00:32:29,027
you want to give real stats from 10% of the

545
00:32:29,087 --> 00:32:33,196
entire ecosystem, which you can extrapolate to 100%, to your

546
00:32:33,256 --> 00:32:37,437
customers. Here you go. Data brokers, you want to sell

547
00:32:37,497 --> 00:32:41,927
this to the advertisers, to the buying companies, whatever. Now

548
00:32:41,947 --> 00:32:44,253
you got to pay for that. And then we divide

549
00:32:44,313 --> 00:32:48,282
that as a collective amongst ourselves, prorated perhaps. I haven't

550
00:32:48,322 --> 00:32:52,936
even thought about that. But just the opportunity. to stick

551
00:32:53,018 --> 00:32:55,581
up a big middle finger to all of these secret

552
00:32:55,661 --> 00:33:01,973
groups and podcast industry and IAB and all this nonsense

553
00:33:01,993 --> 00:33:04,998
that we've known for so long, let's be able to

554
00:33:05,058 --> 00:33:10,861
give podcasters at least an actual number. of what is

555
00:33:10,882 --> 00:33:14,155
really happening with their podcast. We will be hated for

556
00:33:14,216 --> 00:33:17,348
this. Because it's going to ruin a lot of people's

557
00:33:17,408 --> 00:33:20,343
days when they find out that the numbers aren't what

558
00:33:20,363 --> 00:33:24,734
they've been telling the advertisers for 20 years. But over

559
00:33:24,794 --> 00:33:29,396
time, it will make the industry honest. It will have

560
00:33:29,416 --> 00:33:33,956
real metrics so everybody can participate. We have a... We

561
00:33:34,018 --> 00:33:39,012
have a checks and balances with op3.dev with livewire because

562
00:33:39,153 --> 00:33:43,064
obviously so many plays how many downloads i mean we

563
00:33:43,205 --> 00:33:48,019
have everything we need to provide the real numbers for

564
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:54,598
podcasters Not advertisers, not networks, podcasters. who then can decide

565
00:33:54,679 --> 00:33:57,457
what they want to do with their show, have real,

566
00:33:57,537 --> 00:33:59,631
and they should pay for it too, by the way.

567
00:34:00,499 --> 00:34:03,600
Because this is coming from us. It's time to get

568
00:34:03,681 --> 00:34:07,683
paid and time to deliver something of real value, which

569
00:34:07,884 --> 00:34:14,841
I believe we can do as a collective. My first

570
00:34:14,881 --> 00:34:18,257
take is that data is valuable and I'm all for

571
00:34:18,277 --> 00:34:23,247
getting that data out there. That would be... Great. Uh...

572
00:34:24,083 --> 00:34:27,970
I think that handles... the half of what the amp

573
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:30,724
group was talking about and that is like plays uh

574
00:34:30,744 --> 00:34:33,398
how how long you know how many people and how

575
00:34:33,439 --> 00:34:36,340
many how long they got in the episodes. I don't

576
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,467
think that handles the exposure aspect of things. And that's

577
00:34:39,567 --> 00:34:43,115
the, why not? Was this ad particularly listened to? Why

578
00:34:43,175 --> 00:34:46,222
not? But that could be, well, because they do dynamic,

579
00:34:46,463 --> 00:34:49,349
they do dynamic ads, right? And unless this would, you

580
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:52,076
know, not everyone gets the same ad. So just because

581
00:34:52,096 --> 00:34:55,560
in aggregate. You have the histogram of how many things

582
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,067
were played. If the same ad isn't in each episode,

583
00:34:58,087 --> 00:35:00,874
it doesn't. I'm with you. So those are deep. But

584
00:35:00,894 --> 00:35:02,859
that's not a huge deal. I think even plays, I'm

585
00:35:03,020 --> 00:35:04,564
with you on that, that that would be such an

586
00:35:04,824 --> 00:35:08,915
eye-opening thing. Let me tell you where this came from.

587
00:35:09,335 --> 00:35:11,698
With Godcaster, and by the way, I think we should

588
00:35:11,739 --> 00:35:15,923
be the first app to... to join the collective. With

589
00:35:15,943 --> 00:35:21,715
Godcaster, we've had stats for our stations and for our

590
00:35:21,795 --> 00:35:24,902
ministry partners, this is what you call a customer in

591
00:35:24,982 --> 00:35:32,517
Christian business, a partner. We've had play, share, engagement, et

592
00:35:32,557 --> 00:35:36,981
cetera. Recently, we started doing stats from our app with,

593
00:35:37,021 --> 00:35:39,351
what is that program called? Apollo Base? What is it

594
00:35:39,391 --> 00:35:44,705
called, Dave? Apptibase. Apptibase. And the stuff that we get

595
00:35:44,785 --> 00:35:49,778
out of that is fascinating. and the the paths that

596
00:35:49,818 --> 00:35:53,037
people take and and anybody can put this into their

597
00:35:53,178 --> 00:35:57,747
app Now we're starting to do. you know, just to

598
00:35:57,808 --> 00:36:01,375
see how long people are actually listening. So the day

599
00:36:01,395 --> 00:36:05,568
I totally agree with you. There's some, there's some. with

600
00:36:05,608 --> 00:36:08,721
dynamically inserted ads, which by the way is remnant crap

601
00:36:08,761 --> 00:36:12,214
inventory anyway, but okay, maybe we can actually get those

602
00:36:12,415 --> 00:36:16,604
out of the business. by creating something that's very valuable.

603
00:36:16,745 --> 00:36:20,663
You know, even now you can track in-host reads, how

604
00:36:20,683 --> 00:36:24,540
many people actually listen to it. We have so much

605
00:36:24,783 --> 00:36:29,376
power. With just 10% of the listening apps out there.

606
00:36:29,416 --> 00:36:32,513
That's the point I'm trying to drive home. Yeah, absolutely.

607
00:36:32,553 --> 00:36:35,534
Would you be willing to... prepay apps to do it,

608
00:36:35,594 --> 00:36:38,532
right? The pool will be very small, I would assume,

609
00:36:38,673 --> 00:36:41,750
to start out. Would you be willing to kind of

610
00:36:41,830 --> 00:36:44,417
seed that with, because apps are going to need a

611
00:36:44,457 --> 00:36:47,826
little bit of incentive to do this. What they're sitting

612
00:36:47,866 --> 00:36:51,195
on is actually very valuable. So the question would be.

613
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,530
Before we start to see the pennies. coming in, it

614
00:36:54,793 --> 00:36:58,688
would be nice to have... uh some dollars there uh

615
00:36:58,708 --> 00:37:01,257
and some significant dollars right away to do the first

616
00:37:01,659 --> 00:37:05,729
uh the first lift well i said i think The

617
00:37:05,770 --> 00:37:10,362
way I envision this... is we first have to prove

618
00:37:10,422 --> 00:37:13,362
that we have the data. and that the data is

619
00:37:13,424 --> 00:37:17,699
valuable. And it's a rug pull, basically. The rug pull

620
00:37:17,820 --> 00:37:20,795
is... Just like we're publishing all kinds of other stats.

621
00:37:21,396 --> 00:37:25,083
Here's, you know, here's some real top 10 lists. Here's

622
00:37:25,103 --> 00:37:29,712
some real data. Maybe something you can query per pot.

623
00:37:29,752 --> 00:37:33,719
Anything just to prime the pump and show the advertisers.

624
00:37:33,727 --> 00:37:36,302
or anybody who's interested in this data, there's so many

625
00:37:36,342 --> 00:37:39,501
different reasons people want to know about this type of

626
00:37:39,521 --> 00:37:43,657
information. I think we need to prime the pump. And

627
00:37:43,798 --> 00:37:46,221
then we pull the rug and say, okay, now you

628
00:37:46,261 --> 00:37:51,151
have to pay for it. I don't... I want to

629
00:37:51,232 --> 00:37:54,415
share with everybody because if... If someone's going to front

630
00:37:54,436 --> 00:37:56,445
the money, then that person's going to be the guy

631
00:37:56,485 --> 00:37:59,600
who controls everything and runs all the money. And I

632
00:37:59,641 --> 00:38:03,251
don't really want to be that guy. I would prefer

633
00:38:03,271 --> 00:38:05,998
that if we can get enough people interested with a

634
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,771
couple API endpoints, you know, I'm not sure exactly how

635
00:38:10,791 --> 00:38:14,601
to do it technically. For example, how would... Why would

636
00:38:14,661 --> 00:38:17,687
Pocket Cast do this? They would be a good first

637
00:38:17,727 --> 00:38:19,812
target for this. I don't think Overcast would be a

638
00:38:19,872 --> 00:38:22,598
good first target for this. Between those two, that's a

639
00:38:22,678 --> 00:38:25,103
huge chunk of that 10%. Yeah, but I'm not looking

640
00:38:25,163 --> 00:38:29,051
at it that way. That's not how we started with...

641
00:38:29,407 --> 00:38:33,015
Pod friend, you know, then we went to pod verse.

642
00:38:33,095 --> 00:38:35,083
It took, it took. those guys a long time. I'm

643
00:38:35,123 --> 00:38:37,669
not going to start with them. I want the idea

644
00:38:37,890 --> 00:38:41,498
of providing a good example. So, you know, instead of

645
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:44,305
a secret room, what if we, you know, get together

646
00:38:44,345 --> 00:38:47,012
and figure out a way to represent this so that

647
00:38:47,052 --> 00:38:49,518
people can look at it. People like to copy, right?

648
00:38:49,538 --> 00:38:52,478
People like to copy something that's working. So yeah, I

649
00:38:52,499 --> 00:38:56,531
love the idea of... a few Intrepid apps putting this

650
00:38:56,611 --> 00:38:59,336
out there and then showing, we could even use, start

651
00:38:59,376 --> 00:39:02,501
with their definitions, right? Start with the AMP definitions there.

652
00:39:02,721 --> 00:39:04,724
And then seeing what's possible. And then it's more of

653
00:39:04,764 --> 00:39:06,888
a, it gets the ball rolling a bit. And in

654
00:39:06,988 --> 00:39:10,193
fact, at this point, if we can do this, we

655
00:39:10,233 --> 00:39:17,428
can actually give you the definition of... podcast. And the

656
00:39:17,489 --> 00:39:22,212
definition of a podcast becomes syndicated delivery of media files

657
00:39:22,292 --> 00:39:27,853
with precise consumption data for all stakeholders. Now that's a

658
00:39:27,894 --> 00:39:33,477
podcast. That's aiming high. But why not? Again, we were

659
00:39:33,537 --> 00:39:37,045
told. for over a decade, we couldn't do anything, nothing

660
00:39:37,085 --> 00:39:40,972
would work, you know, we can't change anything. It's not

661
00:39:41,032 --> 00:39:44,178
true. It's bullcrap. When we really started to do it,

662
00:39:44,478 --> 00:39:47,424
and we just did it by doing it, you know,

663
00:39:47,865 --> 00:39:53,764
by writing code and by publishing information. People followed and

664
00:39:53,805 --> 00:39:56,703
then it's true You need the apps to get it.

665
00:39:57,027 --> 00:39:59,231
To have some sort of incentive to do it. But

666
00:39:59,251 --> 00:40:02,016
the apps have this information, and if they do it,

667
00:40:02,136 --> 00:40:05,162
then you basically have what you need. It's just, there's

668
00:40:05,242 --> 00:40:06,925
really, if you look at it as a system, they

669
00:40:06,965 --> 00:40:09,109
really don't have the incentive right now to do it.

670
00:40:09,189 --> 00:40:12,435
So you've got to sell everyone one by one. That's

671
00:40:12,455 --> 00:40:15,180
the way this always works. It's always gone. It's always

672
00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:19,128
been that way. It's always been about my... That's what

673
00:40:19,148 --> 00:40:21,272
I've tried to explain in the past. It's not enough

674
00:40:21,332 --> 00:40:23,997
to write a standard or to code something. You have

675
00:40:24,037 --> 00:40:27,344
to convince people to use it. And that requires forming

676
00:40:27,404 --> 00:40:34,178
relationships, talking to people in the open. Actually, one thing

677
00:40:34,238 --> 00:40:39,821
it requires... that is impossible to short circuit. It's impossible

678
00:40:39,841 --> 00:40:44,774
to take a shortcut to. is time. It takes time

679
00:40:44,794 --> 00:40:48,146
to prove to people that you're serious and that you're

680
00:40:48,246 --> 00:40:53,999
also not going anywhere. Like, just staying power. has an

681
00:40:54,083 --> 00:40:57,295
effect on other people that they become comfortable that you

682
00:40:57,415 --> 00:40:59,919
are not just somebody who's going to pop up, have

683
00:40:59,959 --> 00:41:03,243
a proposal and disappear. And the value is in the

684
00:41:03,323 --> 00:41:06,488
data. And once we have the data and we have

685
00:41:06,548 --> 00:41:10,333
enough of it, then we just say, okay, now you

686
00:41:10,353 --> 00:41:13,197
can buy this data from us. And then we all

687
00:41:13,237 --> 00:41:15,652
get a piece of that money. And if we feel

688
00:41:15,692 --> 00:41:17,341
like it's not enough, we'll say, okay, we need to

689
00:41:17,361 --> 00:41:19,492
raise the price. I'm sorry, we're not getting enough out

690
00:41:19,532 --> 00:41:25,649
of this. And the customers are obvious. hosting companies right

691
00:41:25,729 --> 00:41:29,723
off the bat. And they can take their aggregated hosting

692
00:41:29,783 --> 00:41:33,797
company data, their download data, compare it to our play

693
00:41:33,837 --> 00:41:36,271
data. And they can sell that to the ad. So

694
00:41:36,311 --> 00:41:38,656
we don't want to be in the ad business. We

695
00:41:38,696 --> 00:41:40,359
want to be in the data business, which is what

696
00:41:40,399 --> 00:41:43,706
we're in. All we do is data about podcasts, about

697
00:41:43,806 --> 00:41:47,914
metadata, about where stuff lives, where it's at. And now

698
00:41:47,975 --> 00:41:53,611
we have this wonderful opportunity. That everybody has this. And

699
00:41:53,631 --> 00:41:56,781
I'm just asking. for a few things, a few basics,

700
00:41:56,801 --> 00:42:01,375
and we could always build it from there. It sounds

701
00:42:01,395 --> 00:42:03,269
like you're describing, I want to make sure that I'm

702
00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:08,827
clear. is sort of a co-op. A collective, yes, a

703
00:42:08,888 --> 00:42:14,934
co-op, yep. Okay, where... Where all that first. where all

704
00:42:14,975 --> 00:42:22,540
the apps, the listening apps, and open source platforms, we

705
00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:29,270
all get together. and essentially aggregate our data we aggregate

706
00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:32,005
our data in a in a way that fits what

707
00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:39,136
groups like this amp. you know, we're giving them more.

708
00:42:39,216 --> 00:42:42,301
We're giving them much more. This 30 seconds of play

709
00:42:42,361 --> 00:42:46,748
is bullshit. Oh, I agree. Yeah. No, it's baloney. But

710
00:42:47,068 --> 00:42:52,497
we give them actual real stats. Yes. That really tell

711
00:42:52,557 --> 00:42:57,419
the true story. And then that way the listening apps

712
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,108
themselves get to share in the revenue of selling this

713
00:43:01,188 --> 00:43:04,577
data back to the people who want it. Yes, yes.

714
00:43:04,637 --> 00:43:08,695
There's only... I think that's a fantastic idea, but the

715
00:43:08,916 --> 00:43:12,171
only thing that I think throws a wrench into the

716
00:43:12,231 --> 00:43:16,667
whole thing. is the fact that People don't really want

717
00:43:16,728 --> 00:43:20,983
real data. Well, no. See, they want fake data. No,

718
00:43:21,064 --> 00:43:23,678
no, no, no. Because the fake data is always bigger.

719
00:43:23,698 --> 00:43:27,310
No, no, no, no. People, let's define people. As I

720
00:43:27,350 --> 00:43:30,506
said. Advertisers, they don't want to know that their stuff

721
00:43:30,567 --> 00:43:36,624
isn't working. No, no. Advertisers really want to know. Ad

722
00:43:36,744 --> 00:43:40,434
networks don't want to know. People selling ads don't want

723
00:43:40,474 --> 00:43:46,030
to know. But who are the advertisers, though? See, that's

724
00:43:46,070 --> 00:43:52,124
the thing, is the advertisers. are not the company writ

725
00:43:52,164 --> 00:43:55,126
large as a blog. I'm going... I'm going back to

726
00:43:55,186 --> 00:44:01,268
my experience. Advertisers want the right information. What they always

727
00:44:01,328 --> 00:44:04,258
say in advertising is half of my money is working.

728
00:44:04,298 --> 00:44:08,672
I just don't know which half. advertisers, the companies, the

729
00:44:08,854 --> 00:44:15,489
actual mainly fast-moving consumer goods companies. Package good companies, they

730
00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:19,745
want to know. if it's working. And what they will

731
00:44:19,805 --> 00:44:22,572
find out is, wow, we've been overspending a lot. We

732
00:44:22,612 --> 00:44:24,797
will be hated, which is kind of a position I

733
00:44:24,837 --> 00:44:27,784
like. I said that. We will be hated by a

734
00:44:27,844 --> 00:44:31,259
lot of people, but it will be the truth. It

735
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,655
will be the truth. People buying this from the collective.

736
00:44:36,203 --> 00:44:40,002
Buying this data from the collective would be the advertiser

737
00:44:40,203 --> 00:44:45,436
directly, not the agents. No, no, no. The advertised, that's

738
00:44:45,476 --> 00:44:47,321
why you have to make it public for a while.

739
00:44:47,361 --> 00:44:50,731
You have to show that you have the truth and

740
00:44:50,791 --> 00:44:54,632
this is the proof. That's why... The index is a

741
00:44:54,692 --> 00:44:56,355
great place to do this because what are you going

742
00:44:56,375 --> 00:45:01,442
to do? Sue us? Who cares? The advertisers will eventually

743
00:45:01,563 --> 00:45:05,669
say, hey, these guys say the numbers are this. And

744
00:45:05,729 --> 00:45:10,236
you're saying it's this. We would prefer to buy based

745
00:45:10,356 --> 00:45:12,774
on this. And you know what might actually happen? The

746
00:45:12,835 --> 00:45:16,926
CPMs might actually go up. Because there will be less

747
00:45:17,427 --> 00:45:22,919
inventory with more people fighting for it. That's interesting. Yeah,

748
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,206
I didn't think about it in those terms. And this

749
00:45:26,266 --> 00:45:29,653
is why these groups in secret are like, well, we

750
00:45:29,714 --> 00:45:31,878
have to have these metrics, but man, we can't let

751
00:45:31,918 --> 00:45:34,524
everybody. really know that it's all bogus so let's make

752
00:45:34,584 --> 00:45:38,191
a play 30 seconds that's why they do that exactly

753
00:45:38,211 --> 00:45:40,997
that's why they do that and that's why seeing the

754
00:45:41,037 --> 00:45:44,344
discussion in the open instead of in secret is super

755
00:45:44,364 --> 00:45:46,869
important because if you saw the discussion as it was

756
00:45:46,929 --> 00:45:50,536
playing out you would realize that it that that's what

757
00:45:50,617 --> 00:45:54,251
the thinking was The thinking was we can't actually see

758
00:45:54,411 --> 00:45:58,357
real playthroughs. We have to limit it to 30 seconds

759
00:45:58,417 --> 00:46:01,823
so that we can actually register something instead of this

760
00:46:01,883 --> 00:46:05,609
person started the podcast, started listening to the podcast, figured

761
00:46:05,649 --> 00:46:08,153
out there was 12 ads in a pre-roll and just

762
00:46:08,193 --> 00:46:10,897
stopped. And this is why I'm so happy that John

763
00:46:11,338 --> 00:46:14,606
is on this show. Because he has done the work

764
00:46:14,806 --> 00:46:16,954
out of the goodness of his heart and got some

765
00:46:17,616 --> 00:46:21,348
value for value help, but he's really doing it because,

766
00:46:21,509 --> 00:46:26,106
I don't know, it's cold on the farm. And op3.dev

767
00:46:26,126 --> 00:46:31,574
is a fantastic, fantastic resource because now we have even

768
00:46:31,695 --> 00:46:35,009
more data. to say, well, Here's what we're seeing in

769
00:46:35,049 --> 00:46:38,848
the listening apps. Our 10%, it's just 10%, actually, on

770
00:46:38,888 --> 00:46:41,803
no agenda, it's a bigger percentage because I've promoted them.

771
00:46:43,183 --> 00:46:48,182
It's 10% versus what we're seeing on download. So now

772
00:46:48,262 --> 00:46:55,064
you advertiser can talk to your agency. Dan Granger may

773
00:46:55,124 --> 00:46:58,094
have to downsize his office. I don't know. But we're

774
00:46:58,114 --> 00:47:01,204
going to get to the truth, and it will be

775
00:47:01,264 --> 00:47:09,295
the most truthful. Honest. delivery system of all media, because

776
00:47:09,315 --> 00:47:12,666
all measurement of all media is a lie. It's just

777
00:47:12,768 --> 00:47:15,885
a lie everybody agreed on. But when we get down

778
00:47:15,945 --> 00:47:19,212
to this real truth and it's the true data, what

779
00:47:19,252 --> 00:47:22,118
was the promise of the internet, when everyone saw it,

780
00:47:22,138 --> 00:47:24,363
well, you know, these numbers don't go up the way

781
00:47:24,483 --> 00:47:27,128
we told people they would, so they came up with

782
00:47:27,148 --> 00:47:30,435
stuff and we agreed on it and we formed associations

783
00:47:30,495 --> 00:47:32,219
and we say, yeah, this is how you do it.

784
00:47:32,835 --> 00:47:36,121
Now we can show people the truth and that, that

785
00:47:36,202 --> 00:47:41,092
will define what a podcast is. This is a big

786
00:47:41,152 --> 00:47:46,586
idea. I can drop my mic. It's good. I really

787
00:47:46,646 --> 00:47:49,573
like the idea of comparing to legacy RSS downloads. By

788
00:47:49,613 --> 00:47:51,277
the way, this is how they refer to downloads as

789
00:47:51,337 --> 00:47:54,144
legacy RSS. So that's how I'm going to refer to

790
00:47:54,184 --> 00:47:56,349
them from now on. But you're always going to need

791
00:47:56,389 --> 00:48:01,119
them because, like you said, Adam, it's useful to compare

792
00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:04,447
that to the actual listens, right? Because then everyone can

793
00:48:04,487 --> 00:48:07,393
start doing the math themselves. Yes. And like you said,

794
00:48:07,433 --> 00:48:10,917
they are looking for, again, taking them at. at face

795
00:48:10,958 --> 00:48:13,790
value they're looking for Accuracy right there looking for and

796
00:48:14,491 --> 00:48:17,516
this is why DraftKings and better help on the team

797
00:48:17,616 --> 00:48:20,641
Exactly want to know if I put a dollar in

798
00:48:20,681 --> 00:48:23,065
what am I getting for that? And I don't I

799
00:48:23,105 --> 00:48:27,131
don't see that that's necessarily a dangerous or corrosive sort

800
00:48:27,211 --> 00:48:30,737
of incentive there and not we earrings and if we're

801
00:48:30,797 --> 00:48:34,183
able to give them a better answer than other mediums

802
00:48:34,303 --> 00:48:36,588
and I do agree Adam that that data is there

803
00:48:36,608 --> 00:48:39,653
it's in fact it's already being collected yeah it's just

804
00:48:39,794 --> 00:48:43,581
not being sent or centralized or in a central clearinghouse

805
00:48:43,701 --> 00:48:46,907
at the moment and it could be really valuable and

806
00:48:47,068 --> 00:48:49,532
Apple will never give it to a Spotify will never

807
00:48:49,592 --> 00:48:51,656
give it to us YouTube will never give it to

808
00:48:51,717 --> 00:48:54,208
us but we don't really need it That's the beauty.

809
00:48:54,469 --> 00:48:58,015
We have the 10%. You got 10%? I can extrapolate.

810
00:48:58,035 --> 00:49:00,499
Thank you. I can do math. I got a spreadsheet.

811
00:49:00,999 --> 00:49:02,742
I know kind of what it is. Now, it gets

812
00:49:02,822 --> 00:49:07,270
super interesting down the road, and maybe some apps will

813
00:49:07,310 --> 00:49:11,296
follow Apple's cue and say, well, we have, like Fountain,

814
00:49:11,677 --> 00:49:15,685
we have this type of. person using our listening app

815
00:49:16,466 --> 00:49:20,154
and we feel that they are very valuable and there's

816
00:49:20,214 --> 00:49:22,158
something we want to do with the data that we

817
00:49:22,218 --> 00:49:26,006
have independently. But that only happens once everyone has seen

818
00:49:26,046 --> 00:49:29,714
the aggregate and understands, wow, wait a minute, this is

819
00:49:29,774 --> 00:49:33,201
the real stuff. But that data... and I'm saying it

820
00:49:33,241 --> 00:49:36,548
up front, rug pull. We're going to show this data.

821
00:49:37,169 --> 00:49:39,894
I'm saying it. This is the first ever announced rug

822
00:49:40,255 --> 00:49:43,581
pull. We are pre-announcing the rug pull. We're going to

823
00:49:43,681 --> 00:49:45,845
give it to you for free for X amount of

824
00:49:45,926 --> 00:49:49,052
time and then we're going to say, okay, now you

825
00:49:49,072 --> 00:49:50,755
like it? Do you like it, little girl? Do you

826
00:49:50,795 --> 00:49:52,638
like the lollipop? Now we're going to take it away

827
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:54,822
from you. Now you're going to pay for it because

828
00:49:55,083 --> 00:49:58,209
app developers need to get paid. Podcast Index needs to

829
00:49:58,249 --> 00:50:02,237
get paid. John Spurlock's op3.dev needs to get paid. And

830
00:50:02,297 --> 00:50:05,123
I want to see Daniel J. Lewis get paid. Now,

831
00:50:05,143 --> 00:50:09,051
everybody, we have so many people in our ecosystem with

832
00:50:09,111 --> 00:50:12,778
so much power, and we've been so successful on the

833
00:50:12,838 --> 00:50:17,835
fringe. with chapters and transcripts, etc. that now it's time.

834
00:50:18,191 --> 00:50:21,729
And this was the big revelation. I've just been bouncing

835
00:50:21,769 --> 00:50:23,779
around all week trying to figure out where does it

836
00:50:23,820 --> 00:50:25,709
break? The only way it breaks is if we don't

837
00:50:25,749 --> 00:50:29,162
do it. But if we do it, and the technical

838
00:50:29,222 --> 00:50:32,677
implementation is what will make it, Dave, you know, whether

839
00:50:32,717 --> 00:50:35,108
it's an... I don't know, maybe... Do you hit an

840
00:50:35,168 --> 00:50:38,157
endpoint when someone hits play? Maybe you upload a CSV

841
00:50:38,177 --> 00:50:40,684
file. I don't know what the answers are, but follow

842
00:50:40,765 --> 00:50:44,636
numbers, play numbers, and duration of listening. Those are the

843
00:50:44,676 --> 00:50:49,028
three big ones. At an episode level, we will have

844
00:50:49,129 --> 00:50:54,750
created... a true medium called podcasting. audio or video or

845
00:50:54,830 --> 00:50:57,776
PDFs for all I care, it doesn't matter, but we

846
00:50:57,836 --> 00:51:01,003
will be able to drive the industry instead of a

847
00:51:01,204 --> 00:51:05,332
bunch of people sitting inside of secret locations or in

848
00:51:05,453 --> 00:51:09,521
offices or in trade associations. That's not what podcasting has

849
00:51:09,582 --> 00:51:13,319
ever been. It's never been that way. Sam Sethi's always...

850
00:51:13,359 --> 00:51:17,648
already done it before we've ended this episode. So any

851
00:51:17,749 --> 00:51:20,174
spec that we develop is going to be applied to

852
00:51:20,254 --> 00:51:27,690
everyone else. So that's probably the difficult part that is

853
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:31,232
going to require a lot of input from... from everybody

854
00:51:31,273 --> 00:51:36,374
in the community is how How you do this. Here's

855
00:51:36,677 --> 00:51:46,479
always the difficult part. is Making. something like this. not

856
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:49,939
burdensome on the app itself because that's a lot of

857
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,736
data and a lot of traffic. Well, we've been watching

858
00:51:52,776 --> 00:51:54,469
it in real time. time with what Paul has been

859
00:51:54,510 --> 00:51:59,366
doing. Yeah, it's like I know that people I know

860
00:51:59,426 --> 00:52:02,335
that these apps will be willing to share because they

861
00:52:02,375 --> 00:52:05,937
already have I just simply have started asking people Hey,

862
00:52:05,957 --> 00:52:11,409
can you give me the follower counts for all the

863
00:52:11,450 --> 00:52:13,882
podcasts in your database? I just want... feed URLs and

864
00:52:13,922 --> 00:52:16,389
how many people follow that. And Mitch gave it to

865
00:52:16,429 --> 00:52:19,137
me and Sam and all the people are just like,

866
00:52:19,157 --> 00:52:21,564
yeah, sure. Here you go. Right. I know they're willing

867
00:52:21,584 --> 00:52:24,553
to share, but in order to have it be, be

868
00:52:24,613 --> 00:52:29,921
like an actual pipeline. or a workflow that doesn't put

869
00:52:29,941 --> 00:52:32,015
a lot on them. That's why the pod sage is

870
00:52:32,075 --> 00:52:35,670
here. You're going to go back and you're going to

871
00:52:35,811 --> 00:52:38,461
think about it. You're going to go camping and you're

872
00:52:38,501 --> 00:52:40,629
like, yeah, I got an idea now. I know how

873
00:52:40,649 --> 00:52:43,071
to do it. Yes, of course. This is why you're

874
00:52:43,111 --> 00:52:46,300
the pod sage. And by the way, I am so

875
00:52:46,361 --> 00:52:49,991
grateful to hosting companies who've supported Podcast Index. I don't

876
00:52:50,031 --> 00:52:52,358
want to sound like, hey, thanks for supporting us. Now

877
00:52:52,398 --> 00:52:57,019
we're going to... charge you, but we are. You know?

878
00:52:57,322 --> 00:53:03,503
This, no, I... I suggest a two-stage rug pull. First,

879
00:53:03,583 --> 00:53:08,040
don't rug pull, then rug pull. No, you do what

880
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,951
Nathan says. You say free during beta, then you rug

881
00:53:10,971 --> 00:53:14,662
pull that. But then the second rug... pull is one

882
00:53:14,722 --> 00:53:18,870
time payment lifetime subscription then a year later you say

883
00:53:18,890 --> 00:53:20,954
oh yeah we don't mean that you have to pay

884
00:53:20,974 --> 00:53:24,060
every month I just want to do all the things

885
00:53:24,100 --> 00:53:26,865
that have all the dark patterns people do to everybody

886
00:53:26,925 --> 00:53:31,374
else we should do all that data surcharge yeah data

887
00:53:31,434 --> 00:53:35,827
surcharge fee a bandwidth fee Dave, you probably don't remember

888
00:53:36,008 --> 00:53:38,594
podcast events, do you? It was a proposal I put

889
00:53:38,615 --> 00:53:40,359
together a long time ago. I do. Yeah, I remember

890
00:53:40,419 --> 00:53:42,926
that. I was about to mention it earlier on when

891
00:53:42,966 --> 00:53:46,666
we were talking. It was actually... Pretty much meant to

892
00:53:46,706 --> 00:53:49,117
kind of address this exact problem. It's like, how do

893
00:53:49,137 --> 00:53:51,788
we do it? But that was more in a decentralized

894
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:55,041
way. That was assuming that apps... would be sharing it

895
00:53:55,121 --> 00:53:58,570
for the benefit of podcasters, not the benefit of... Apps!

896
00:53:59,131 --> 00:54:02,099
Advertising and apps. So it's like, there's nothing that would

897
00:54:02,139 --> 00:54:05,969
prevent you all from sending that to a centralized, let's

898
00:54:06,029 --> 00:54:09,591
call it a clearinghouse sort of endpoint, not... every single

899
00:54:09,631 --> 00:54:12,591
podcast host. So that could be something that could be

900
00:54:12,651 --> 00:54:16,802
off the shelf. pretty much used to do this. My

901
00:54:16,842 --> 00:54:19,834
big allergic reaction, I think, to this is this whole

902
00:54:19,874 --> 00:54:24,191
centralization aspect. And that kind of goes to the signing

903
00:54:24,251 --> 00:54:27,205
as well. It's like as soon as we start really

904
00:54:27,265 --> 00:54:32,339
sort of integrating existing apps and hosts. I tend to

905
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,321
see that as a bad thing. in general and this

906
00:54:34,341 --> 00:54:37,367
would be a massive like out amping amp like we're

907
00:54:37,387 --> 00:54:42,597
all working together it's a super amp yeah giga amp

908
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,585
my first thought but my first thought on how to

909
00:54:46,645 --> 00:54:50,072
do this and and hot takes are usually terrible but

910
00:54:50,112 --> 00:54:53,519
my first thought on how to do this was simply

911
00:54:53,847 --> 00:55:00,347
to make it decentralized. Okay, well, let me just say

912
00:55:00,368 --> 00:55:05,056
it. Let me lay it out this way. Centralization is

913
00:55:05,077 --> 00:55:09,306
okay as long as it comes after the fact. And

914
00:55:09,327 --> 00:55:12,684
what I mean by that is like... think about pod

915
00:55:12,704 --> 00:55:19,071
ping. Podping is decentralized, but you have websites like tiles.podping.org

916
00:55:19,272 --> 00:55:23,547
that then recentralize the data back into a feed or

917
00:55:23,587 --> 00:55:27,922
a stream or some sort of... product. And all of

918
00:55:27,942 --> 00:55:30,701
that. And I mean, it's essentially what podcasting does. Podcasting

919
00:55:30,762 --> 00:55:33,037
is decentralized, but then you have these listening apps that

920
00:55:33,077 --> 00:55:36,824
are. they aggregate the decentralized data back into a single

921
00:55:38,373 --> 00:55:41,633
point of contact. So that is fine. And the first

922
00:55:41,693 --> 00:55:43,488
thing that popped into my head on how to do

923
00:55:43,548 --> 00:55:49,996
that was. Why not broadcast it over Podbean? We define

924
00:55:50,016 --> 00:55:52,534
a standard of how the stats are to be laid

925
00:55:52,735 --> 00:55:59,450
out. Let's just... for the sake of discussion, let's say

926
00:55:59,511 --> 00:56:03,211
that it was something as simple as just a flat

927
00:56:03,983 --> 00:56:10,496
comma delimited. CSV file. Okay. I'm not proposing that. I'm

928
00:56:10,516 --> 00:56:13,236
just saying let's just keep that in your head as

929
00:56:13,356 --> 00:56:16,187
the thing. the format we might, we could work with.

930
00:56:17,343 --> 00:56:20,685
as long as we specify the columns and the exact

931
00:56:20,746 --> 00:56:23,323
data that the way it's supposed to be laid out

932
00:56:23,903 --> 00:56:29,211
apps themselves. could produce a file that fits that spec.

933
00:56:30,047 --> 00:56:32,872
And then they could just simply pod ping out from

934
00:56:32,932 --> 00:56:36,182
time to time. Once an hour. Once a day. Who

935
00:56:36,203 --> 00:56:40,484
knows, they could pod ping... out a URL where that

936
00:56:40,564 --> 00:56:44,176
data is publicly downloadable. Here's the only problem I have

937
00:56:44,217 --> 00:56:46,705
with that. But then everybody would just grab it and

938
00:56:46,745 --> 00:56:50,191
we couldn't charge for it. Exactly. This, so I'm going

939
00:56:50,231 --> 00:56:55,447
against everything that I've ever stood. for really in podcasting.

940
00:56:56,315 --> 00:57:00,977
However, I'm doing it. to advanced podcasting. And what do

941
00:57:01,037 --> 00:57:02,784
I mean by that? Oh, I love when I do

942
00:57:02,844 --> 00:57:06,558
that. Well, I should have said, why? Here's why. Yes,

943
00:57:06,578 --> 00:57:10,371
yes. Please question yourself. There's already a huge amount of

944
00:57:10,392 --> 00:57:14,834
trust in Podcast Index. There's entire businesses. that depend on

945
00:57:14,915 --> 00:57:20,678
Podcast Index being around. several apps could not live without

946
00:57:20,779 --> 00:57:24,388
it. So there's a trust. And I think we've earned

947
00:57:24,408 --> 00:57:30,355
that trust and we deserve that trust. Everything around us,

948
00:57:30,838 --> 00:57:36,369
all the things we complain about involve... money. Now. I'm

949
00:57:36,409 --> 00:57:42,811
not interested in advertising. I am interested in not just...

950
00:57:43,167 --> 00:57:49,012
helping the apps that have been frankly struggling. for years

951
00:57:49,053 --> 00:57:52,031
or decades just to kind of keep the new version

952
00:57:52,091 --> 00:57:54,656
going, update with the apps. store, et cetera, et cetera,

953
00:57:54,676 --> 00:57:57,924
et cetera. Oh, now I need a server. but also

954
00:57:58,046 --> 00:58:04,016
to Have the ecosystem grow with more apps. Because, hey.

955
00:58:04,339 --> 00:58:07,914
I can actually participate in the data collective. And all

956
00:58:07,934 --> 00:58:10,043
right, I'm a small app, so maybe I get $5

957
00:58:10,184 --> 00:58:13,819
a month or $5 a week or whatever it is.

958
00:58:14,339 --> 00:58:17,866
But now there's your incentive. There has to be an

959
00:58:17,947 --> 00:58:23,593
incentive and it has to be financial. And we will

960
00:58:24,194 --> 00:58:29,808
outstrip the demand, outstrip the, look at, Apple is already

961
00:58:29,828 --> 00:58:33,717
30% of my listeners use Apple. That's a lot less

962
00:58:33,757 --> 00:58:37,518
than it was. Now, the other 30% is probably Spotify,

963
00:58:38,022 --> 00:58:43,544
but I have 7%. the Podverse. I've got 3 or

964
00:58:43,564 --> 00:58:49,601
4% fountain. So this is an ecosystem that will grow,

965
00:58:49,641 --> 00:58:53,052
but we're not getting into the ad business. Lots of

966
00:58:53,092 --> 00:58:55,980
people want to know how their podcast is doing. Just

967
00:58:56,020 --> 00:58:58,765
how's my podcast doing? We got this many downloads. What

968
00:58:58,785 --> 00:59:02,052
does that mean? Well, now the hosting company can say

969
00:59:02,072 --> 00:59:05,559
for, you know, they charge 20 bucks. So maybe they

970
00:59:05,599 --> 00:59:08,666
have to pay 50 cents or 25 cents a user

971
00:59:08,766 --> 00:59:11,933
into the collective. This is exactly what's going on. This

972
00:59:11,993 --> 00:59:15,263
is exactly what's happening with your podcast. You see. It

973
00:59:15,304 --> 00:59:23,185
starts to benefit everybody. Why the sigh? Because... It's not

974
00:59:23,225 --> 00:59:26,277
the tech of this that... that makes me nervous it's

975
00:59:26,377 --> 00:59:31,996
the administrative overhead of having to like accept money and

976
00:59:32,036 --> 00:59:34,877
then make payouts to people and all that kind of

977
00:59:34,897 --> 00:59:37,644
stuff. But we have an intern. No, but wait, but

978
00:59:37,664 --> 00:59:42,459
wait, but wait. That's why we have the rug pull

979
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:48,342
timeline. We have plenty of time. First, we're not there

980
00:59:48,403 --> 00:59:53,335
yet. The first thing we have to do is prove

981
00:59:53,375 --> 00:59:56,367
that we have the data. and that that data is

982
00:59:56,449 --> 01:00:01,935
valuable. That comes from publishing that data continuously, it being

983
01:00:01,996 --> 01:00:05,201
a thing, people going to look at it, podcasters saying,

984
01:00:05,222 --> 01:00:08,608
well, here's what I'm seeing, here's what I've got. Once

985
01:00:08,668 --> 01:00:11,193
we have that, we may decide at the end of

986
01:00:11,233 --> 01:00:12,555
the road, we're going to do something else. We all

987
01:00:12,595 --> 01:00:15,685
want a chocolate bar. I don't care. But we have

988
01:00:15,725 --> 01:00:22,051
to show... The so-called industry that we, as a collective,

989
01:00:22,433 --> 01:00:25,027
we have the true data, and you're full of shit.

990
01:00:25,351 --> 01:00:27,485
And this is the real stuff. So stop meeting in

991
01:00:27,565 --> 01:00:32,195
secret. This is what podcasting is. And a podcast is...

992
01:00:32,711 --> 01:00:37,827
A syndicated... I had that line written down. Syndicated delivery

993
01:00:37,867 --> 01:00:41,435
of media files with precise consumption data for all stakeholders.

994
01:00:41,796 --> 01:00:45,966
Everything else is not a podcast because here's your proof.

995
01:00:46,127 --> 01:00:49,996
These are podcasts. Can be video, can be HLS video,

996
01:00:50,377 --> 01:00:53,911
can be downloads. I don't care what it is. Is

997
01:00:53,972 --> 01:00:57,038
there going to be a rug pull countdown timer on

998
01:00:57,099 --> 01:01:02,431
the website? Yes, definitely. On Times Square. On the big

999
01:01:03,252 --> 01:01:08,023
board. Like the debt clock, yes. On the Flatiron building.

1000
01:01:08,635 --> 01:01:12,066
If we do that, if we do part A... Part

1001
01:01:12,127 --> 01:01:16,000
B will come naturally. And so I'm not worried about

1002
01:01:16,020 --> 01:01:21,256
that part at all. And once we've all figured it

1003
01:01:21,417 --> 01:01:24,206
out, and there may be five other ideas of what

1004
01:01:24,246 --> 01:01:26,432
to do with this data, but at least it'll be

1005
01:01:26,513 --> 01:01:32,329
this group. My... My... -Alice, not a fear. -Cause we're

1006
01:01:32,389 --> 01:01:36,880
all gonna get... stomped out and rubbed out. By the

1007
01:01:36,963 --> 01:01:41,317
heel. of the podcast industrial complex over time if we

1008
01:01:41,418 --> 01:01:48,142
don't do something like this. MUTT expectation If this is

1009
01:01:48,686 --> 01:01:53,966
truly successful. And this data is published. for all to

1010
01:01:54,026 --> 01:02:02,215
see and the extrapolations are made. expectation is that People

1011
01:02:02,276 --> 01:02:08,815
would immediately see... how much the advertising narrative. is built

1012
01:02:08,976 --> 01:02:14,149
on just complete fabrication. - Absolutely. and the numbers will

1013
01:02:14,190 --> 01:02:21,093
expose. that very clearly. I disagree with that. Only because

1014
01:02:21,133 --> 01:02:24,701
they're seeing this today, Dave. So the stats you get

1015
01:02:24,741 --> 01:02:29,130
from Apple are incredibly detailed. And the stuff, I don't

1016
01:02:29,150 --> 01:02:30,974
know if you've seen a bumper dashboard and that sort

1017
01:02:31,015 --> 01:02:35,177
of thing. There's companies that will scrape. for a particular

1018
01:02:35,237 --> 01:02:37,230
show that like go out to Apple, they'll go out

1019
01:02:37,250 --> 01:02:39,324
to Spotify, they'll go out to YouTube and they will

1020
01:02:39,364 --> 01:02:42,837
present it all. So they're actually seeing this today, that

1021
01:02:43,198 --> 01:02:45,067
bad news or whatever you want to call it. And

1022
01:02:45,087 --> 01:02:48,744
there's, you know, this is basically Mr. Meister's job is

1023
01:02:48,764 --> 01:02:52,204
to kind of. educate people as to this. So I

1024
01:02:52,244 --> 01:02:54,200
don't think it would be much of a shock. And

1025
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,552
I think, again, I think they would love this information.

1026
01:02:57,572 --> 01:02:59,338
I think they would love more of it. And we

1027
01:02:59,378 --> 01:03:01,325
could be a good, this is a big idea, but

1028
01:03:02,027 --> 01:03:05,117
I think. It could serve as an example. And just

1029
01:03:05,218 --> 01:03:08,928
like with the namespace. The shape of the data, I

1030
01:03:08,988 --> 01:03:12,331
think, is probably the number one thing. Like, what are

1031
01:03:12,391 --> 01:03:14,838
we capturing and what... what do we think is valuable

1032
01:03:14,918 --> 01:03:18,188
and what is valuable not only to the apps, but

1033
01:03:18,348 --> 01:03:20,602
it's really like what is valuable to the stakeholders? And

1034
01:03:20,622 --> 01:03:22,030
I think a lot of this would be to talk

1035
01:03:22,070 --> 01:03:25,322
to folks. in the game, right? In the advertising game

1036
01:03:25,363 --> 01:03:28,155
and say like, would this be useful if we did

1037
01:03:28,215 --> 01:03:30,606
this? And that's part of the open discussion, I think,

1038
01:03:30,626 --> 01:03:34,029
that you'd have to talk about. We need Dan Granger

1039
01:03:34,089 --> 01:03:36,743
on this show, which I'm sure. Yeah, run it by

1040
01:03:36,783 --> 01:03:41,250
Dan. I'm sure he'll come on, Dave. Yeah, I'll holler

1041
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:46,770
at him. But to finally be able to define what

1042
01:03:46,810 --> 01:03:50,252
a podcast is. You know, we just added a little

1043
01:03:50,293 --> 01:03:53,924
bit to it. But we define it, not these other

1044
01:03:53,944 --> 01:03:56,272
guys. Personally, I think the podcast definition is a little

1045
01:03:56,372 --> 01:03:58,479
overreach. I don't think you have to send stuff to

1046
01:03:58,519 --> 01:04:03,675
podcastindex.org to be called a podcast. I'm not saying that.

1047
01:04:04,191 --> 01:04:09,208
I think holding up podcasting as a great way, podcasting

1048
01:04:09,269 --> 01:04:11,737
the term being known as a great way to get

1049
01:04:11,757 --> 01:04:15,553
accurate. stats on how things are just like kind of

1050
01:04:15,613 --> 01:04:17,919
digital is, I think that would be great. That's, and

1051
01:04:17,999 --> 01:04:20,665
it's sort of like, it's turning the weakness that a

1052
01:04:20,705 --> 01:04:22,450
lot of folks see in podcasting right now, which is

1053
01:04:22,510 --> 01:04:26,379
the coordination and the chaos of it into an advantage.

1054
01:04:26,419 --> 01:04:28,945
It kind of like flips the narrative. Here's the great

1055
01:04:29,005 --> 01:04:33,693
thing, John. It's not exclusive to us. If someone comes

1056
01:04:33,773 --> 01:04:36,713
along and they have a better way of doing stuff

1057
01:04:36,733 --> 01:04:39,729
with that data. then all the apps can send that

1058
01:04:39,789 --> 01:04:42,842
data to them. Yeah, totally. And Apple could just look

1059
01:04:42,942 --> 01:04:44,910
and kind of what they do, they pay attention to

1060
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:47,441
all this stuff. They just don't contribute. And if they

1061
01:04:47,501 --> 01:04:51,631
see, hey, this is working. Uh, you know, who knows?

1062
01:04:51,995 --> 01:04:54,895
They might. participate in as well or participate in something

1063
01:04:54,955 --> 01:04:56,786
similar and that's this is why the shape of the

1064
01:04:56,826 --> 01:05:00,549
data is probably the most important thing. So it's not

1065
01:05:00,629 --> 01:05:04,158
exclusive to us, but I think it would move pod.

1066
01:05:04,379 --> 01:05:08,168
I'm, I'm passionate about podcasting and it, and I'm passionate

1067
01:05:08,208 --> 01:05:11,396
about it being on RSS, but I specifically say in

1068
01:05:11,456 --> 01:05:15,194
my definition, Cindy. Delivery so it could be something else.

1069
01:05:15,255 --> 01:05:16,924
I hope it never is but it could be and

1070
01:05:17,789 --> 01:05:21,266
it doesn't have to be us aggregating it I'd like

1071
01:05:21,327 --> 01:05:23,551
it to be. But it doesn't have to be if

1072
01:05:23,591 --> 01:05:26,039
we do a better job. I mean, it's still like

1073
01:05:26,219 --> 01:05:29,168
podcast index itself. We have to go to the GitHub,

1074
01:05:29,208 --> 01:05:31,797
go build your own. Go ahead. I think everything is

1075
01:05:31,837 --> 01:05:33,503
open source at this point. point go build your own

1076
01:05:33,543 --> 01:05:36,296
they're just today looking at uh dave's code yeah go

1077
01:05:36,336 --> 01:05:39,530
ahead go go build your own podcast index and some

1078
01:05:39,550 --> 01:05:43,032
people don't want to do that But I think it

1079
01:05:43,818 --> 01:05:48,573
is the perfect time. When I see these types of

1080
01:05:48,613 --> 01:05:52,119
groups, and they got the advertising in there, and DraftKings.

1081
01:05:52,159 --> 01:05:55,606
and better help they spend a lot of money and

1082
01:05:55,626 --> 01:05:58,929
so they they want they want to know what they're

1083
01:05:58,949 --> 01:06:01,622
spending their money on. That's why they're in there. And

1084
01:06:01,682 --> 01:06:05,204
so if we say, hey, here's the real numbers. I

1085
01:06:05,284 --> 01:06:08,401
think we'll be loved by advertisers, but we'll also be

1086
01:06:08,442 --> 01:06:12,975
loved by speaking bureaus and people who just... want exposure

1087
01:06:13,015 --> 01:06:16,500
for their book or whatever it is. And then if

1088
01:06:16,540 --> 01:06:18,765
you want, hey, break it down by app. Hey, it

1089
01:06:18,805 --> 01:06:22,854
turns out I've got a huge following on Podverse. Let

1090
01:06:22,894 --> 01:06:24,578
me go talk to Mitch over there. And what can

1091
01:06:24,618 --> 01:06:27,524
I do, Mitch? Can we do some business here? We

1092
01:06:27,584 --> 01:06:30,631
started out with podcasting. I happen to have been there.

1093
01:06:31,083 --> 01:06:34,282
When it was this. Hey, man, it's all open. We

1094
01:06:34,343 --> 01:06:37,937
all love each other. And we got fucked. I'm sorry.

1095
01:06:37,957 --> 01:06:41,551
That just slipped out. We really did. Everybody made money

1096
01:06:41,632 --> 01:06:45,753
around us. Man, I was going to come in here

1097
01:06:45,773 --> 01:06:48,665
and be optimistic. I think podcasting is like rocking it

1098
01:06:48,685 --> 01:06:50,874
right now. We have a video solution that works great.

1099
01:06:50,934 --> 01:06:56,148
Everything's still in the open. is amazing. It is. Podcast

1100
01:06:56,188 --> 01:07:01,199
technology is rocking because there's people that care. I'm super

1101
01:07:01,219 --> 01:07:06,449
positive. In fact, I'm amped. I'm amped up. Because this

1102
01:07:06,529 --> 01:07:09,103
is an opportunity that I see this like, wow, this

1103
01:07:09,163 --> 01:07:11,938
is once in a lifetime. We've proven that we can

1104
01:07:11,978 --> 01:07:14,535
do stuff. We've proven we can move mountains. We can

1105
01:07:14,675 --> 01:07:19,232
change the big boys by just doing it. So why

1106
01:07:19,252 --> 01:07:27,551
don't we do it? That's my pitch. I'm gonna- From

1107
01:07:27,591 --> 01:07:31,112
Spurlock, I take that as a huge compliment. Very big

1108
01:07:31,153 --> 01:07:35,240
idea. I love big ideas. Yeah. Thank you. I mean,

1109
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,172
is there enough energy to even talk about HTTP signing

1110
01:07:38,594 --> 01:07:44,865
requests anymore? I'm exhausted. PCDC? We got to work on

1111
01:07:44,905 --> 01:07:47,216
the name, though. Well, yeah. That's a small thing. Yeah,

1112
01:07:47,457 --> 01:07:50,452
yeah. I didn't have time for acronyms. I just liked...

1113
01:07:50,472 --> 01:07:56,439
Podcast Plus. Podcast Plus. data collective plus plus two pluses

1114
01:07:58,843 --> 01:08:02,907
So... Yeah, I'm kind of wiped out too. But if

1115
01:08:02,927 --> 01:08:06,098
you want to talk about anything else, I'm good. I

1116
01:08:07,002 --> 01:08:09,972
basically just spewed my, I blew my wad that I've

1117
01:08:09,992 --> 01:08:16,764
been holding up for an entire week. I literally have

1118
01:08:16,864 --> 01:08:20,556
no energy for HTTP signing discussion at this point. It's

1119
01:08:20,576 --> 01:08:26,843
a bad idea. Let's not do it. That clearly seems

1120
01:08:26,904 --> 01:08:31,106
to be the sentiment. I was actually interested to see

1121
01:08:31,167 --> 01:08:35,988
that, uh... Mr. Overcast sort of. Not only made one

1122
01:08:36,028 --> 01:08:39,785
very long contribution, but two. And this is not something

1123
01:08:39,805 --> 01:08:42,980
that normally happens. So I think we might have hit

1124
01:08:43,020 --> 01:08:47,282
a nerve there. What contributions? Just to the discussion, yeah.

1125
01:08:47,322 --> 01:08:50,185
Yeah, to the open discussion. Well, I mean, so I

1126
01:08:50,548 --> 01:08:53,200
guess I'll... I guess. I thought there were a month.

1127
01:08:56,051 --> 01:09:04,775
Where do I start? I think... What? Here's my concern.

1128
01:09:04,795 --> 01:09:08,999
Let me just try to... Throw dirt on my idea.

1129
01:09:09,039 --> 01:09:12,603
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, this is

1130
01:09:12,623 --> 01:09:17,427
on the HTTP signing. It's topic shift. Oh, okay, okay.

1131
01:09:17,751 --> 01:09:25,884
I think Did the issue. A-A rose. from a very...

1132
01:09:27,576 --> 01:09:30,515
I know how it arose because I talked to Tom.

1133
01:09:30,935 --> 01:09:37,875
about it. The desire for better identification for download agents.

1134
01:09:39,159 --> 01:09:46,451
head. origin in HLS video because abuse of HLS video

1135
01:09:47,191 --> 01:09:56,119
Those data sizes is extremely expensive. Now does Buzzsprout have

1136
01:09:56,179 --> 01:10:00,845
any HLS video out there at the moment? Yeah, they

1137
01:10:00,865 --> 01:10:04,863
do. Yeah, they support each other. Not in fees, though.

1138
01:10:05,205 --> 01:10:07,475
Well, I don't know. I mean, they're supporting Apple spec.

1139
01:10:08,087 --> 01:10:14,106
but um but they are definitely serving HLS video. Right,

1140
01:10:14,206 --> 01:10:16,111
but it's not in Fiji. I think the – No,

1141
01:10:16,192 --> 01:10:20,444
it's getting abused. It's getting abused because people are scraping

1142
01:10:20,484 --> 01:10:25,508
the HLS stream out of the podcast.apple.com website. And you

1143
01:10:25,630 --> 01:10:30,837
are even only using the private API. For distribution, it's

1144
01:10:31,019 --> 01:10:35,550
already getting abused. And that's the concern. And so here,

1145
01:10:35,692 --> 01:10:38,466
let me just lay out my... what seems like a

1146
01:10:38,547 --> 01:10:42,875
devil's advocate argument at this point because what i What

1147
01:10:42,936 --> 01:10:47,777
I want to do is not... care about HTTP signing.

1148
01:10:48,079 --> 01:10:51,895
I don't want to have, I mean, like... That's not

1149
01:10:51,936 --> 01:10:55,262
the- the thing I want to be, like the hill

1150
01:10:55,322 --> 01:10:57,028
I want to die on. Well, he titled it well.

1151
01:10:57,088 --> 01:10:59,638
It's more client identification, right? Like, do we want to

1152
01:10:59,758 --> 01:11:07,195
add stronger client identification to podcasting? But I see their

1153
01:11:07,276 --> 01:11:14,448
concerns, and I think they are identifying. problem. that's going

1154
01:11:14,489 --> 01:11:20,969
to become A big problem. In HTTP signing, may not

1155
01:11:21,029 --> 01:11:24,781
be what everybody wants to do. And that's fine. I'm

1156
01:11:24,882 --> 01:11:28,172
completely fine with whatever the group decides. That's why we

1157
01:11:28,212 --> 01:11:33,454
discuss things in the open. But... Video downloads are large,

1158
01:11:33,655 --> 01:11:41,304
expensive things. And it's just different than audio. The... People

1159
01:11:42,683 --> 01:11:46,639
Abuse? I agree it's important for that very reason, by

1160
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,801
the way. And I want to talk about this only

1161
01:11:49,902 --> 01:11:56,475
as it involves HLS. I want to like. I don't

1162
01:11:56,495 --> 01:12:00,854
think anybody has ever proposed that audio be part of

1163
01:12:00,894 --> 01:12:06,216
this traditional MP3 downloaded audio podcasts. But so if we're

1164
01:12:06,236 --> 01:12:11,260
talking about only HLS video. Then I don't see- there

1165
01:12:11,321 --> 01:12:14,717
having to be any sort of secret meeting or like

1166
01:12:14,979 --> 01:12:18,275
Zoom call in order to get your data trusted. To

1167
01:12:18,395 --> 01:12:22,430
me, what this is, is. If you send a request

1168
01:12:22,490 --> 01:12:29,041
for HLS Media, To RCDN. We would require you to

1169
01:12:29,222 --> 01:12:33,989
sign the request. than if at some point in the

1170
01:12:34,069 --> 01:12:37,984
future we determine that you are an abusive bot. we

1171
01:12:38,325 --> 01:12:46,005
will stop respecting your requests. But it would not be

1172
01:12:46,145 --> 01:12:48,491
blocked and then you have to contact us to get

1173
01:12:48,531 --> 01:12:51,750
access. It would be everyone immediately has access. That's by

1174
01:12:51,791 --> 01:12:56,456
default. it would default open. And then it would only

1175
01:12:56,596 --> 01:13:01,821
close access when there was an abuse that happened. To

1176
01:13:01,881 --> 01:13:08,595
me, that's how I understood his proposal. And like... That

1177
01:13:08,635 --> 01:13:13,664
seemed reasonable to me. Tell me how that's not reasonable.

1178
01:13:15,811 --> 01:13:17,283
So I thought, I actually, I thought you were going

1179
01:13:17,303 --> 01:13:18,574
to have Tom on the show. I thought that would

1180
01:13:18,594 --> 01:13:22,286
have been great. But, um... I think it is reasonable.

1181
01:13:22,306 --> 01:13:25,408
And in fact, it would make my life a lot

1182
01:13:25,449 --> 01:13:30,746
easier as well. I spend... Probably way more time than

1183
01:13:30,766 --> 01:13:34,294
I should have. should spend every day. battling the same

1184
01:13:34,334 --> 01:13:37,023
sort of thing with OP3. Now I don't block requests.

1185
01:13:37,571 --> 01:13:40,138
But I do make sure that requests that say they're

1186
01:13:40,178 --> 01:13:42,865
from Overcast, but then are hammering the site a thousand

1187
01:13:42,905 --> 01:13:45,833
times, I have to exclude those, right? And it's always

1188
01:13:45,913 --> 01:13:49,616
a new sort of challenge every day. out there. There's

1189
01:13:49,697 --> 01:13:51,862
new bots, there's new things pretending to be other things

1190
01:13:51,903 --> 01:13:55,350
because the user agent HTTP is not should never have

1191
01:13:55,390 --> 01:13:58,424
been and is not a good reliable signal of who's

1192
01:13:58,465 --> 01:14:01,720
calling, right, in HTTP. In HTTP, you do that with

1193
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:03,709
the authorization header. You don't do that with the user

1194
01:14:03,729 --> 01:14:06,984
agent header. But the question comes in like, do we

1195
01:14:07,044 --> 01:14:13,583
want to introduce... Should we filter? Podcast media now. So

1196
01:14:13,885 --> 01:14:16,802
we're not talking about client stats, but the media that

1197
01:14:16,843 --> 01:14:19,874
has always been open in podcast feeds. Do we now

1198
01:14:19,915 --> 01:14:25,601
want to... add an additional layer of who are we

1199
01:14:25,641 --> 01:14:28,279
going to send this media versus what are they doing.

1200
01:14:28,699 --> 01:14:32,661
And I think Buzzsprout does this today. and all these

1201
01:14:32,701 --> 01:14:36,352
other companies, what they do today is they look at

1202
01:14:36,613 --> 01:14:40,524
requests coming in, right? And they make their application level

1203
01:14:40,564 --> 01:14:45,337
firewalls. more complex over time. And to me, there's no,

1204
01:14:45,679 --> 01:14:49,947
it is for audio today because it's actually similar. to

1205
01:14:49,967 --> 01:14:54,206
video. In fact, the way it HLS works. HLS is

1206
01:14:54,247 --> 01:14:56,940
not one massive file, right? It's like six different encodings,

1207
01:14:57,041 --> 01:15:01,027
but six second chunks. So with HLS, it's actually far

1208
01:15:01,229 --> 01:15:04,291
easier to filter on the server side and detect abuse

1209
01:15:04,331 --> 01:15:08,160
quicker. I actually happen to, I've been working with some

1210
01:15:08,220 --> 01:15:11,716
folks and I'm actually working on an OP3 integration with

1211
01:15:11,877 --> 01:15:14,574
HLS. You can see a lot more, but some of

1212
01:15:14,594 --> 01:15:17,323
the patterns are still exactly the same, right? There are

1213
01:15:17,343 --> 01:15:20,534
a lot of auto downloads, especially in audio, right? So

1214
01:15:20,574 --> 01:15:23,925
those look like someone's just ripping through the video, so

1215
01:15:23,985 --> 01:15:28,802
you can't really trap those. And then the videos that

1216
01:15:28,842 --> 01:15:31,336
are kind of live are human scale, right? So you

1217
01:15:31,376 --> 01:15:35,907
can see. six seconds chunks requested about every six seconds.

1218
01:15:36,388 --> 01:15:40,456
Those are easy. It's really, we're talking about a subset

1219
01:15:40,496 --> 01:15:43,762
of a subset of requests that are, give me all

1220
01:15:43,802 --> 01:15:45,846
the variants, right? Over and over and over and over.

1221
01:15:46,127 --> 01:15:47,690
And you know how long it takes to rack up

1222
01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:52,921
a appreciable bandwidth bill? off of several six second chunks,

1223
01:15:52,941 --> 01:15:56,150
it's a long time. So to me, it's more of

1224
01:15:56,210 --> 01:15:58,536
an abstraction breakage. I don't think we should be in

1225
01:15:58,576 --> 01:16:01,784
the business of filtering. Like if a podcast is putting

1226
01:16:01,825 --> 01:16:05,176
data out to the media, out to the world. To

1227
01:16:05,277 --> 01:16:07,589
me, I don't think we should be discriminating based on

1228
01:16:07,630 --> 01:16:10,988
the color. And yes, that even includes bots because one

1229
01:16:11,028 --> 01:16:14,141
man's bot is another man's app. right so let's say

1230
01:16:14,161 --> 01:16:17,829
someone uses claude to create their own podcast app right

1231
01:16:17,869 --> 01:16:19,993
who knows what they're going to use as a user

1232
01:16:20,053 --> 01:16:21,596
agent who knows what they're going to have as a

1233
01:16:21,636 --> 01:16:26,265
back end it's really not something i think we that

1234
01:16:26,305 --> 01:16:29,761
would be good to go down in general and In

1235
01:16:29,802 --> 01:16:33,357
the short term, it would help, particularly on the server

1236
01:16:33,458 --> 01:16:37,884
aspect. things and the PSP is sort of mainly made

1237
01:16:37,944 --> 01:16:41,073
up of hosting companies. This is why I would love

1238
01:16:41,173 --> 01:16:42,957
Marco to kind of like participate in that a little

1239
01:16:42,977 --> 01:16:44,380
bit more. I think they'd love to have him, but

1240
01:16:44,420 --> 01:16:47,907
that would create some balance in the force. But no

1241
01:16:47,947 --> 01:16:49,611
one's really speaking up for the app side of things

1242
01:16:49,751 --> 01:16:52,617
and the innovation side on the client aspect of things.

1243
01:16:52,657 --> 01:16:57,798
I think it's dangerous. to sort of... view every media

1244
01:16:57,858 --> 01:17:01,808
fetch, yes, including video, as something that can only happen

1245
01:17:01,888 --> 01:17:06,761
between known entities. And let's be clear, like this would

1246
01:17:06,781 --> 01:17:10,270
be used to filter requests, right? Whether to slow them

1247
01:17:10,310 --> 01:17:14,336
down or whether to block them. And I do have

1248
01:17:14,356 --> 01:17:17,808
a bit of information as for my position, like looking

1249
01:17:17,828 --> 01:17:20,517
at all the podcasts that are released in the world

1250
01:17:20,557 --> 01:17:24,284
or whatever. There is a list of podcast companies that

1251
01:17:24,345 --> 01:17:26,979
block more than others, right? And try to do this

1252
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:30,986
more aggressively than others. um and buzzprout is at the

1253
01:17:31,026 --> 01:17:33,901
top of that list right so they block more aggressively

1254
01:17:33,941 --> 01:17:38,622
than any other company. So when I saw that Tom

1255
01:17:38,663 --> 01:17:40,477
was involved with this, I wasn't necessarily that surprised. I

1256
01:17:40,518 --> 01:17:44,697
think number two... would be red circle. And then there's

1257
01:17:44,737 --> 01:17:47,404
like a huge drop off. Like basically no one blocks

1258
01:17:47,444 --> 01:17:51,274
media requests. And to me, that's a good thing. I

1259
01:17:51,294 --> 01:17:53,078
don't know if you saw part of Marco's comment was

1260
01:17:53,139 --> 01:17:56,637
he. Basically, Marco gets blamed when things get blocked, right?

1261
01:17:56,658 --> 01:17:59,222
Of course. So BuzzFrost never blocked. This is an app

1262
01:17:59,242 --> 01:18:03,095
problem, right? And to me, I think we should basically

1263
01:18:03,135 --> 01:18:06,486
do as much work as possible to make app lives

1264
01:18:06,727 --> 01:18:09,597
easier because that's where really the current problem that we

1265
01:18:09,617 --> 01:18:12,390
have in podcasting is. I think the... Having to do

1266
01:18:12,431 --> 01:18:14,262
more work, having to do more work, for John having

1267
01:18:14,302 --> 01:18:16,189
to do more work for Tom is a price I

1268
01:18:16,952 --> 01:18:19,420
think we need to pay in smart kind of server

1269
01:18:19,440 --> 01:18:25,165
filtering instead of adding more integration between who's calling and

1270
01:18:25,185 --> 01:18:27,796
the media itself. What do you mean by smart? That's

1271
01:18:27,816 --> 01:18:30,728
my basic argument. What do you mean by smart server

1272
01:18:30,808 --> 01:18:35,567
filtering? So every, uh... every company now when requests come

1273
01:18:35,627 --> 01:18:37,591
in right they can they get the logs right so

1274
01:18:37,651 --> 01:18:39,334
old school is you look at the logs after the

1275
01:18:39,395 --> 01:18:41,800
fact and then every day they go in and tweak

1276
01:18:42,301 --> 01:18:45,407
either by ip or by user agent and ip right

1277
01:18:45,427 --> 01:18:47,311
so this is used to be a very slow process

1278
01:18:47,952 --> 01:18:50,598
and now basically think of it as this process is

1279
01:18:50,638 --> 01:18:53,874
speeding up so that it can almost happen. during the

1280
01:18:53,915 --> 01:18:56,151
day, right? So they see something happening right now, they

1281
01:18:56,171 --> 01:18:59,051
can quickly turn that one off or slow it down.

1282
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,581
And if it were me, I would kind of like

1283
01:19:03,641 --> 01:19:07,019
slow these requests down, right? Because that's one thing to...

1284
01:19:07,471 --> 01:19:09,782
uh sort of make sure that this is so if

1285
01:19:09,802 --> 01:19:12,916
someone sits there and hits download on a movie and

1286
01:19:12,977 --> 01:19:15,514
it takes an appreciable amount of time to download. That's

1287
01:19:15,575 --> 01:19:18,598
fine for a human. But that would really squash any

1288
01:19:18,658 --> 01:19:20,987
sort of dumb transcription bot that's just kind of doing

1289
01:19:21,027 --> 01:19:23,558
things over and over. Also, transcription bots are not going

1290
01:19:23,578 --> 01:19:29,066
to read movies, but... You're saying tar pitting instead of

1291
01:19:29,106 --> 01:19:33,034
blocking. I wouldn't even, if tarpitting means slow down, yeah,

1292
01:19:33,054 --> 01:19:37,011
I wouldn't. necessarily serve weird videos for abuse. I would

1293
01:19:37,051 --> 01:19:38,998
actually just slow it down so that it's human scale

1294
01:19:39,359 --> 01:19:42,008
in the worst, right? If we do determine that this

1295
01:19:42,068 --> 01:19:46,613
looks like... something that's abusive. And yes, honestly, I know

1296
01:19:46,653 --> 01:19:49,645
that that's difficult, but maybe we could come up with

1297
01:19:49,726 --> 01:19:53,472
common server libraries or even third-party services. You know, something

1298
01:19:53,492 --> 01:19:55,492
like an HLS shield, right? Where if you don't want

1299
01:19:55,513 --> 01:19:57,691
to do this work yourself... You can just put something

1300
01:19:57,732 --> 01:19:59,199
in front of it and that will do the work

1301
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:03,114
for you. So are you saying that... Go ahead. No,

1302
01:20:03,154 --> 01:20:08,374
sorry. Go ahead. Are you saying that? Are you saying

1303
01:20:08,414 --> 01:20:12,420
that you advocate for a hosting company? to never block

1304
01:20:12,399 --> 01:20:15,828
any media download for any reason i think yes i

1305
01:20:15,868 --> 01:20:19,839
think that is something that podcasting has been for 20

1306
01:20:19,899 --> 01:20:21,523
years and i think that's a dark road to go

1307
01:20:21,584 --> 01:20:24,845
down that we should block requests that we don't. We

1308
01:20:24,865 --> 01:20:28,058
should be innovating in how to serve media as much

1309
01:20:28,138 --> 01:20:31,793
as possible to everyone. I don't think, unless it's obviously

1310
01:20:31,813 --> 01:20:35,352
an abuse and that can be Detected by use, not

1311
01:20:35,393 --> 01:20:38,581
by caller. I think we should try as hard as

1312
01:20:38,621 --> 01:20:44,981
we can to serve Serve media without discrimination. Yes, including

1313
01:20:45,001 --> 01:20:48,100
the box. But it's not, again, I will make another

1314
01:20:48,140 --> 01:20:53,621
disclaimer because people tend to forget. things I'm out. I'm

1315
01:20:54,528 --> 01:21:01,016
giving my best attempt to argue for this. as with

1316
01:21:01,176 --> 01:21:04,648
everything I've got, just so that we can have the

1317
01:21:04,708 --> 01:21:09,142
best debate possible about whether or not to even spend

1318
01:21:09,203 --> 01:21:14,152
our time on something like this. It's not about... effort.

1319
01:21:14,923 --> 01:21:21,058
To me, it's about cost. so If somebody, and I

1320
01:21:21,078 --> 01:21:26,923
can tell you that this has happened. If somebody's bot

1321
01:21:26,983 --> 01:21:37,033
goes wild. and downloads terabytes of data. I don't see

1322
01:21:37,176 --> 01:21:43,567
how... We can say that a... Hosting companies should just

1323
01:21:43,669 --> 01:21:48,481
sit back. And just accept that and just pay that

1324
01:21:48,581 --> 01:21:52,176
bill when it's clearly not a person who is one

1325
01:21:52,598 --> 01:21:56,483
like. What the hosting company, the sort of the contract

1326
01:21:57,044 --> 01:22:01,398
that hosting companies have with the podcasting ecosystem is that

1327
01:22:01,418 --> 01:22:05,831
they're going to serve their customer, the creator. And by

1328
01:22:05,932 --> 01:22:11,714
doing so, they also facilitate the media delivery from the

1329
01:22:11,794 --> 01:22:15,867
creator to the listener. And when it's clear that the

1330
01:22:16,008 --> 01:22:22,987
listener is no longer part of this transaction. then there's

1331
01:22:23,048 --> 01:22:27,216
no more contractual obligation there to the hosting company. And

1332
01:22:27,256 --> 01:22:31,046
I think that this has a problem for decentralization also,

1333
01:22:31,690 --> 01:22:33,969
because take a company like... Take a hosting company like

1334
01:22:34,050 --> 01:22:41,412
Pinecast. It's a decent-sized hosting company, independent. Matt Basta. It's

1335
01:22:41,452 --> 01:22:44,648
an independent hosting company. He seems to do pretty well.

1336
01:22:44,668 --> 01:22:46,537
He's got a, I don't know how many podcasts he

1337
01:22:46,578 --> 01:22:48,849
delivers at this point, but it's, I don't know, a

1338
01:22:48,889 --> 01:22:55,233
few thousand at least. and at At the scale of

1339
01:22:55,253 --> 01:22:59,950
HLS abuse that I've heard of so far, I don't

1340
01:23:00,010 --> 01:23:04,168
think that Pinecast could even do HLS. Unless they did

1341
01:23:04,390 --> 01:23:06,208
it in blocking. There's a lot of fear coming into

1342
01:23:06,248 --> 01:23:10,667
this. It takes a very long time to download terabytes

1343
01:23:10,728 --> 01:23:18,211
and terabytes of HLS segments. It's happening, John. In aggregate.

1344
01:23:18,331 --> 01:23:19,934
I can give you the people to talk to. It

1345
01:23:20,014 --> 01:23:22,899
is happening. Yeah. I just think that it can be

1346
01:23:22,980 --> 01:23:26,586
detected and should be detected. I don't think that it's...

1347
01:23:26,606 --> 01:23:30,133
You can download terabytes of audio in the same way.

1348
01:23:30,193 --> 01:23:33,178
What does Pinecast do? Or what is some even better

1349
01:23:33,238 --> 01:23:35,793
argument? is what does someone like James Cridland do, right?

1350
01:23:35,813 --> 01:23:38,370
So he hosts his own show. Let's say he wanted

1351
01:23:38,410 --> 01:23:42,240
to start doing HLS. Right. That's even, you know, he,

1352
01:23:42,260 --> 01:23:43,931
is he going to, he probably is not going to

1353
01:23:43,971 --> 01:23:47,694
go and have a dynamic. HLS filter on his side.

1354
01:23:47,754 --> 01:23:50,686
So that's probably a, but the question is, is like,

1355
01:23:50,746 --> 01:23:55,250
who, like, is, can this abuse be? combated without making

1356
01:23:55,311 --> 01:23:59,333
the media. effectively private and that's i would hope that

1357
01:23:59,373 --> 01:24:01,976
we sort of exhaust we use all of our kind

1358
01:24:02,016 --> 01:24:03,823
of innovation that we have in the group to kind

1359
01:24:03,843 --> 01:24:06,633
of look at that specifically. You know, take Flycast, right?

1360
01:24:06,673 --> 01:24:08,561
So Flycast is a great new company, and this is

1361
01:24:08,581 --> 01:24:11,191
the awesome thing about podcasting, right? They just came out

1362
01:24:11,231 --> 01:24:14,396
of nowhere, and all of a sudden... They're the producer

1363
01:24:14,436 --> 01:24:18,295
of basically the highest quality HLS videos out there in

1364
01:24:18,376 --> 01:24:23,557
open podcasting today, right? So... They publish more variants, higher

1365
01:24:23,617 --> 01:24:28,227
quality variants, in more podcast episodes using alternate enclosure than

1366
01:24:28,327 --> 01:24:31,314
any of the existing providers. And they are somehow able

1367
01:24:31,354 --> 01:24:34,060
to do this. So I think it's, I don't... you

1368
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:36,698
know, obviously I, I'm just one person. It's just my

1369
01:24:36,738 --> 01:24:40,218
opinion, but I think this should be something that. Hosting

1370
01:24:40,258 --> 01:24:43,093
companies are compared against each other with, right? Like how

1371
01:24:43,334 --> 01:24:46,894
open can we make our media? Because ultimately it's going

1372
01:24:46,914 --> 01:24:49,142
to come down to the apps. Someone is going to

1373
01:24:49,182 --> 01:24:52,554
say, I can't play this video in this app because

1374
01:24:52,594 --> 01:24:54,621
it's on this host. And then we get... to this

1375
01:24:54,721 --> 01:25:00,280
matrix of apps, servers, competitors. But why would that happen?

1376
01:25:01,584 --> 01:25:05,598
What you're describing is a closed ecosystem, and that's not

1377
01:25:05,678 --> 01:25:08,974
what this proposal is. This proposal is not for closing

1378
01:25:09,035 --> 01:25:14,119
the ecosystem. This proposal is for adding a verification metric.

1379
01:25:14,319 --> 01:25:18,180
Where you can, where if somebody spoofs your user agent,

1380
01:25:18,703 --> 01:25:21,765
the CDN can tell that that's not you. And they

1381
01:25:21,805 --> 01:25:25,926
can block the correct entity that is abusing and not

1382
01:25:25,966 --> 01:25:32,751
you. Like what Marco was describing. with Overcast was middlemen

1383
01:25:32,791 --> 01:25:36,875
that sit in between. and say something like ad blockers.

1384
01:25:37,551 --> 01:25:46,091
And or or lousy. Or VPNs a lot is filtered.

1385
01:25:46,794 --> 01:25:49,925
Or VPNs, yes. But none of that applies to HTTP

1386
01:25:49,945 --> 01:25:54,269
signing requests. None of those things are factors there. And

1387
01:25:54,309 --> 01:25:58,837
what you're saying to me already, though, is that... Buzzsprout

1388
01:25:59,260 --> 01:26:03,590
is already blocking and Red Circle, they're already blocking abusive

1389
01:26:03,651 --> 01:26:08,219
traffic. But that does not show up. in normal client

1390
01:26:08,361 --> 01:26:15,544
app download. We're not seeing rampant. failures of downloads. for

1391
01:26:15,585 --> 01:26:21,086
major podcast listening apps. from Buzzsprout and Red Circle. So

1392
01:26:21,146 --> 01:26:25,621
they're doing this blocking intelligently already, even with the limited

1393
01:26:25,722 --> 01:26:28,611
metric, even with the limited ability to do identification that

1394
01:26:28,631 --> 01:26:31,521
they already have. This would allow them to do it

1395
01:26:31,803 --> 01:26:36,864
even more intelligently. And again, only for HLS video. which

1396
01:26:37,045 --> 01:26:41,001
Overcast does not support video anyway, so this would not

1397
01:26:41,061 --> 01:26:45,600
even be part of the equation for that app. so

1398
01:26:45,882 --> 01:26:48,051
like i'm sure he'd like to right i'm sure if

1399
01:26:48,131 --> 01:26:50,100
it was there if there are videos in the feed

1400
01:26:50,180 --> 01:26:52,390
that he would definitely take a look at that i

1401
01:26:53,234 --> 01:26:56,928
don't think we should use overcast necessarily as Even though

1402
01:26:56,948 --> 01:26:59,192
he was very kind of like adamant on this point,

1403
01:26:59,212 --> 01:27:01,496
I don't think we should basically do this for him

1404
01:27:01,516 --> 01:27:06,024
necessarily. But I think it's sort of a dangerous, to

1405
01:27:06,084 --> 01:27:08,128
me, it's kind of a, you know, if you view

1406
01:27:08,168 --> 01:27:10,051
the abstraction line where like all the apps are on

1407
01:27:10,091 --> 01:27:12,235
top of the line and all the hosting companies are

1408
01:27:12,255 --> 01:27:15,187
below the line, it's sort of this new. kind of

1409
01:27:15,368 --> 01:27:17,992
the hands sneaking over back and forth and saying like,

1410
01:27:18,653 --> 01:27:21,758
okay, so we know this. And again, Tom's a great

1411
01:27:21,918 --> 01:27:24,863
guy. Like Buzzsprout is amazing company. Like it's, that's why

1412
01:27:24,923 --> 01:27:27,968
it's sort of, that's why, honestly, that's why I chose

1413
01:27:28,008 --> 01:27:31,214
to add to that particular thread. Whereas I don't, you

1414
01:27:31,254 --> 01:27:32,876
know, I don't necessarily love to get into all the

1415
01:27:32,896 --> 01:27:35,040
GitHub threads, but I think it's important. because it is

1416
01:27:35,060 --> 01:27:39,672
a narrowly good idea for certain players in the space,

1417
01:27:39,692 --> 01:27:43,301
right? Where it's like not necessarily good long-term. Like what

1418
01:27:43,341 --> 01:27:46,108
if Spotify said, you know, tomorrow we're coming out with

1419
01:27:46,148 --> 01:27:50,287
something called verified apps, right? Where... If you want to

1420
01:27:50,347 --> 01:27:56,641
fetch audio from Megaphone or Anchor, We're going to have

1421
01:27:56,681 --> 01:28:00,049
you, we're going to do a signed cryptographic thing and

1422
01:28:00,089 --> 01:28:02,755
then you can register with us. We're not going to

1423
01:28:02,815 --> 01:28:05,541
block you based off of it. But that's not the,

1424
01:28:05,582 --> 01:28:08,308
that was never the proposal. There was never a registration

1425
01:28:08,368 --> 01:28:11,114
involved. There was never any sort of coordination. It was

1426
01:28:11,235 --> 01:28:15,320
purely sign it. And it's like basically just like math

1427
01:28:15,299 --> 01:28:20,929
This request came from someone that owns this domain name,

1428
01:28:20,969 --> 01:28:23,734
basically, is what the public key does, or this public

1429
01:28:23,754 --> 01:28:27,401
key, which is more signal, right? So that's, I totally

1430
01:28:27,461 --> 01:28:29,525
see, and again, I can argue the other side, I

1431
01:28:29,785 --> 01:28:32,675
hope as good as Tom. It would help OP3, right?

1432
01:28:32,695 --> 01:28:36,524
Because I could say, hey, these are veris... Apple downloads

1433
01:28:36,585 --> 01:28:39,078
and these are non verified Apple downloads again in the

1434
01:28:39,299 --> 01:28:42,768
fictional world where Apple would do this um it doesn't

1435
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:46,420
that well actually that's probably important if i'm someone that's

1436
01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:49,529
doing uh this abuse do you think it was intentional

1437
01:28:49,690 --> 01:28:51,616
the hls abuse that you're talking about dave or was

1438
01:28:51,656 --> 01:28:58,803
it unintentional Um, I think that it is... My just...

1439
01:28:59,191 --> 01:29:01,889
Of course, there's no way to prove any of this.

1440
01:29:01,909 --> 01:29:05,579
Yeah, but I think most of the abuse... just from

1441
01:29:05,620 --> 01:29:08,366
what I see on the index side. Most of the

1442
01:29:08,427 --> 01:29:12,981
abuse comes from carelessness. Right. And what user agents do

1443
01:29:13,021 --> 01:29:16,119
they use? Yeah, a bunch of vibe coding careless stuff.

1444
01:29:16,099 --> 01:29:19,388
Yes. Yes. And they're going to continue to use browser

1445
01:29:19,469 --> 01:29:23,681
user agents, right? Oh, time out. Is it dinner time?

1446
01:29:23,761 --> 01:29:27,212
I am just alerting the pod sage that we are

1447
01:29:27,252 --> 01:29:31,705
at 2.03 and 1.29 on the counter, so it's up

1448
01:29:31,725 --> 01:29:33,992
to you. I'm happy to sit here. It's my fault.

1449
01:29:34,012 --> 01:29:37,463
I shouldn't have gotten into this conversation. very long conversation.

1450
01:29:37,483 --> 01:29:39,731
I think it goes to like what podcasting almost is.

1451
01:29:39,992 --> 01:29:42,922
And like, if media should be always public versus not

1452
01:29:42,983 --> 01:29:46,502
for video and audio, but. So it's my fault. No,

1453
01:29:46,522 --> 01:29:49,378
it's no one's fault. Dave has a job he has

1454
01:29:49,418 --> 01:29:54,581
to get back to. And... I think the issue- What

1455
01:29:54,622 --> 01:29:58,550
do you think, Adam? You invented podcasting. Oh, what? Someone

1456
01:29:58,671 --> 01:30:01,635
asked me my opinion? What? I mean, should the media,

1457
01:30:01,675 --> 01:30:05,482
that it's always been readily available, should the media be

1458
01:30:05,602 --> 01:30:08,426
free for any caller, regardless if they're faking their user

1459
01:30:08,466 --> 01:30:14,536
agent or not? But that's not a fair characterization. I

1460
01:30:15,217 --> 01:30:19,955
do not care. If this proposal goes forward or if

1461
01:30:20,035 --> 01:30:24,326
it dies today, I really ultimately do not care because

1462
01:30:24,366 --> 01:30:26,833
the community gets to have its way. That's the way

1463
01:30:26,873 --> 01:30:31,775
this thing works. But I do deeply care about whether

1464
01:30:31,835 --> 01:30:36,356
or not it's fairly characterized so that we're all agreeing

1465
01:30:36,437 --> 01:30:41,115
that we're... either. that we're arguing for the same thing.

1466
01:30:41,535 --> 01:30:44,647
And it's not, and the way you described it is

1467
01:30:44,768 --> 01:30:50,843
not accurate. But there is no closing of the ecosystem.

1468
01:30:51,807 --> 01:30:55,935
It is a – what you're seeing and describing is

1469
01:30:56,217 --> 01:31:00,907
a – potential blocking of valid traffic in the future.

1470
01:31:01,967 --> 01:31:06,671
And that's not. technical thing that is a behavioral thing

1471
01:31:06,751 --> 01:31:10,240
that may or may not happen It's true. It may

1472
01:31:10,301 --> 01:31:12,035
or may not happen. I'm just curious what his thoughts

1473
01:31:12,115 --> 01:31:17,603
are on it. My thoughts are... I would like. I

1474
01:31:17,624 --> 01:31:21,353
obviously, I feel that... From the beginning, it's just been

1475
01:31:21,413 --> 01:31:28,592
open and free access and do whatever. Um... I... know

1476
01:31:28,653 --> 01:31:33,545
that video is an expensive data hog and people need

1477
01:31:33,587 --> 01:31:38,809
to pay for it. And that includes... Bot stuff. However,

1478
01:31:39,451 --> 01:31:43,926
I would personally appreciate being able to identify as something

1479
01:31:44,026 --> 01:31:47,358
valid and tell a company that has blocked something from

1480
01:31:47,418 --> 01:31:51,110
me. This is valid and this is why. Now, if

1481
01:31:51,150 --> 01:31:54,066
they decide to block me, okay, there's nothing I can

1482
01:31:54,107 --> 01:31:55,816
do about it, but they're probably going to block me

1483
01:31:55,897 --> 01:31:58,855
anyway. because they don't know who I am. And I've

1484
01:31:58,896 --> 01:32:01,385
had this very issue with stuff I've been doing for

1485
01:32:01,446 --> 01:32:06,346
Godcaster. And... It would be if there's a technical way

1486
01:32:06,446 --> 01:32:10,058
to identify and say, hey, I'm signing this request and

1487
01:32:10,139 --> 01:32:12,988
this is me and here's what I'm doing. And for

1488
01:32:13,028 --> 01:32:16,966
them to say, okay, why are you... Why is it

1489
01:32:17,047 --> 01:32:19,274
so much or whatever, you know, that may alert me

1490
01:32:19,315 --> 01:32:22,723
to something? And that would be totally something that I

1491
01:32:22,764 --> 01:32:26,711
could mess up And I have. I think it would

1492
01:32:26,832 --> 01:32:32,071
benefit... So to have. But by the same token, you

1493
01:32:32,091 --> 01:32:36,226
know, it's like... The problem is I use Linode instances,

1494
01:32:36,267 --> 01:32:39,426
they're blocked by everybody. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I

1495
01:32:39,487 --> 01:32:42,291
need to use Linode instance because I can't just have

1496
01:32:42,352 --> 01:32:45,477
everything running on my systems at home. So that's where

1497
01:32:45,497 --> 01:32:47,100
I'd like to be able to sign it and say,

1498
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:49,324
this is me, and here's what I'm doing, and here's

1499
01:32:49,404 --> 01:32:52,209
why. And if there's something you're seeing that is out

1500
01:32:52,269 --> 01:32:56,135
of, we're all pretty, I think we're all good people

1501
01:32:56,216 --> 01:32:59,264
in general, certainly at that system level. Someone says, hey

1502
01:32:59,284 --> 01:33:02,829
man, you're downloading 50 copies of this file every minute.

1503
01:33:03,172 --> 01:33:07,244
Oh crap, thank you. You know, I don't see why

1504
01:33:07,305 --> 01:33:10,933
someone would block me just because. you know, I'm doing

1505
01:33:11,174 --> 01:33:13,685
something different, but if there's an abuse, hey, it's an

1506
01:33:13,745 --> 01:33:16,295
easy way to see who that is and how to

1507
01:33:16,336 --> 01:33:19,895
get in touch with me. Does that make sense? I

1508
01:33:19,936 --> 01:33:23,738
can see how So I just know the way I

1509
01:33:23,979 --> 01:33:26,654
behave with the API. Cause just like, cause like you,

1510
01:33:26,694 --> 01:33:30,435
John, I'm, I'm fighting bot traffic on a daily basis.

1511
01:33:31,079 --> 01:33:37,568
And what I... see often is I'll see traffic that

1512
01:33:37,669 --> 01:33:42,394
becomes abusive. suddenly there's just some new user agent that

1513
01:33:42,434 --> 01:33:45,779
pops up out of nowhere and just starts just hammering

1514
01:33:45,819 --> 01:33:48,703
everything we have. Have you seen the ones that actually

1515
01:33:48,743 --> 01:33:51,207
apologize in the user agent? They're like, if this is

1516
01:33:51,267 --> 01:33:55,213
causing you trouble, underscore, like, I'm sorry. I have no

1517
01:33:55,313 --> 01:33:58,137
idea. There must be some code that does this because

1518
01:33:58,157 --> 01:34:01,444
I see a bunch of these every day. And the

1519
01:34:01,606 --> 01:34:04,952
only way I know how to handle that traffic... is

1520
01:34:05,074 --> 01:34:10,386
to, um, is to rate limit it by hand. and

1521
01:34:10,446 --> 01:34:14,179
start giving them a 429 because I don't know who

1522
01:34:14,220 --> 01:34:19,137
this thing is. It'll be some vague user agent coming

1523
01:34:19,278 --> 01:34:23,189
from... you know, an Asian CDN. I have no idea

1524
01:34:23,250 --> 01:34:27,008
what this is. It could be just a mistake in

1525
01:34:27,048 --> 01:34:30,294
their code. Or they didn't read the terms of service

1526
01:34:30,355 --> 01:34:32,643
or who knows. And so all I know to do

1527
01:34:32,763 --> 01:34:36,075
is to get their attention, I have to 429 them.

1528
01:34:36,559 --> 01:34:39,864
And get them, and that will get their attention. Suddenly

1529
01:34:39,905 --> 01:34:44,276
their thing fails. And then they, they re in most

1530
01:34:44,336 --> 01:34:46,945
of the time. I never hear another peep from, from

1531
01:34:47,005 --> 01:34:50,437
it. It just, the traffic disappears and change their users.

1532
01:34:50,457 --> 01:34:52,584
Yeah. Well, no, but I never see the same behavior

1533
01:34:52,664 --> 01:34:56,313
again. It just, it just goes away. But occasionally I'll

1534
01:34:56,333 --> 01:35:00,012
429 somebody and I'll get an email and say, hey,

1535
01:35:00,372 --> 01:35:03,358
I can't access the index anymore. And I will go,

1536
01:35:03,618 --> 01:35:07,426
I will work with them and tell them what they

1537
01:35:07,466 --> 01:35:10,371
were doing. And they're like, oh, we didn't know there

1538
01:35:10,391 --> 01:35:14,018
was a mistake. This very thing happened with a podcast

1539
01:35:14,359 --> 01:35:18,809
app. It was backfilling transcripts. And I was like, no,

1540
01:35:18,850 --> 01:35:23,326
you can't. scrape you know every episode in the end

1541
01:35:23,346 --> 01:35:27,696
you can't scrape 150 million episodes I will give you

1542
01:35:27,776 --> 01:35:31,645
a better way let's work together because it's gonna it's

1543
01:35:31,705 --> 01:35:35,514
going to degrade the platform for everybody else who also

1544
01:35:35,594 --> 01:35:43,726
needs it and so like The... So What I see

1545
01:35:43,786 --> 01:35:51,188
with something like signing... is the ability for... Somebody like

1546
01:35:51,228 --> 01:35:53,571
a Buzzsprout or a Red Circle or somebody like that.

1547
01:35:54,055 --> 01:35:57,144
to identify, to go ahead and say, okay, look, this

1548
01:35:57,225 --> 01:36:03,836
is overcast. This is his public key. This is... Podverse's

1549
01:36:03,876 --> 01:36:07,035
public key. This is Fountain's public key. I know these

1550
01:36:07,095 --> 01:36:12,025
guys. And if they have a spike in downloads, I

1551
01:36:12,046 --> 01:36:14,731
can go ahead and whitelist them ahead of time so

1552
01:36:14,771 --> 01:36:18,437
that they never get blocked. And so that they, I

1553
01:36:18,477 --> 01:36:21,691
can, if I see something that. It looks like a

1554
01:36:21,892 --> 01:36:28,373
really strange change in... and traffic patterns, instead of blocking

1555
01:36:28,453 --> 01:36:32,405
them, I can reach out to them and say, hey,

1556
01:36:32,606 --> 01:36:34,251
here's something that's going on, just like I had to

1557
01:36:34,312 --> 01:36:38,537
do with Fountain. And Oscar ended up... identifying a problem

1558
01:36:38,578 --> 01:36:41,379
where they were getting bought abused on their end. And

1559
01:36:41,459 --> 01:36:45,087
that abuse was flowing through to the Podcast Index API.

1560
01:36:45,728 --> 01:36:48,654
And Oscar was very thankful that I gave him that

1561
01:36:48,734 --> 01:36:50,939
information so he could fix the problem on his end.

1562
01:36:51,881 --> 01:36:54,686
We've identified a lot of things like in Apple Podcasts.

1563
01:36:54,706 --> 01:36:56,790
There have been bugs in the past, and those show

1564
01:36:56,851 --> 01:37:01,280
up immediately in all these systems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's

1565
01:37:01,401 --> 01:37:02,989
why I wonder if the HLS thing is also a

1566
01:37:03,029 --> 01:37:09,795
bug. In Overcast, they continue to have... like a redownloading

1567
01:37:09,835 --> 01:37:12,141
bug. So you'll see a lot of the Overcast share

1568
01:37:12,201 --> 01:37:14,947
go up sort of artificially in the last few months,

1569
01:37:15,188 --> 01:37:17,553
and then people are starting to realize this. So that's

1570
01:37:17,613 --> 01:37:19,357
a case where you wouldn't want to block Overcast ever,

1571
01:37:19,417 --> 01:37:21,915
really. But it's a good way to say like, oh,

1572
01:37:21,975 --> 01:37:24,155
we think it's overcast. And whether it's signed or not.

1573
01:37:24,575 --> 01:37:27,970
I mean, you can tell an Overcast user agent, right?

1574
01:37:28,131 --> 01:37:32,149
And I don't think signing is necessarily required to do

1575
01:37:32,209 --> 01:37:37,441
this. Just so you know, John. My robot went to

1576
01:37:37,501 --> 01:37:41,333
go get the Pod News Weekly Review. All robots do,

1577
01:37:41,636 --> 01:37:44,582
they just decide to do it differently today. And it

1578
01:37:44,622 --> 01:37:47,499
said, oh, I got blocked. But the Overcast user agent

1579
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:52,328
worked. Literally. Exactly. Came out of cloud code. And I

1580
01:37:52,369 --> 01:37:54,438
think actually James does a very good job. He's a

1581
01:37:54,478 --> 01:37:56,928
bit grumpy on this week's episode, but he does a

1582
01:37:56,948 --> 01:38:00,241
lot of traveling. Like, I think... he does a very

1583
01:38:00,281 --> 01:38:01,944
good job of laying out why this is important. And

1584
01:38:02,024 --> 01:38:06,353
really, it's more about stronger client identification, right? That's really

1585
01:38:06,393 --> 01:38:10,100
what this is. It's like, who is calling? Who's fetching

1586
01:38:11,242 --> 01:38:13,567
the media in this case? So that's, I think, the

1587
01:38:13,587 --> 01:38:17,615
strongest argument. And I do agree that the semantics of

1588
01:38:17,675 --> 01:38:20,879
whether it's using signing that looks... like mastodon or something

1589
01:38:20,961 --> 01:38:23,678
else and there's a lot of prior art here because

1590
01:38:23,718 --> 01:38:28,330
websites are being sort of pulled excessively by bots and

1591
01:38:28,431 --> 01:38:31,659
there's a similarity there. So I don't know that a

1592
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:34,126
new solution isn't necessarily even needed here. We might just

1593
01:38:34,146 --> 01:38:37,896
want to piggyback on one of those. Whether or not,

1594
01:38:37,916 --> 01:38:39,602
I think it's more of a... I'm sort of not

1595
01:38:39,622 --> 01:38:41,208
looking at it from the technical side. I'm looking at

1596
01:38:41,248 --> 01:38:43,436
it, is this a good idea? And so everyone just

1597
01:38:43,457 --> 01:38:45,826
needs to be, hey, is this a good idea not

1598
01:38:45,886 --> 01:38:48,255
only for all the hosting companies, which it would be

1599
01:38:48,295 --> 01:38:52,173
a good idea for. But also the apps and also

1600
01:38:52,213 --> 01:38:55,345
the services that can't speak for themselves because they're not

1601
01:38:55,385 --> 01:39:00,588
listening to the podcast. They lose. Well... I know that

1602
01:39:00,691 --> 01:39:05,846
one of... a very valuable website to me. that I

1603
01:39:06,007 --> 01:39:10,972
used that was an enthusiast website for 70s model Ford

1604
01:39:11,032 --> 01:39:16,802
trucks. Incredible resource that had every technical diagram and detail

1605
01:39:16,862 --> 01:39:20,728
and owner's manuals and forums and everything. It's basically just

1606
01:39:20,768 --> 01:39:26,258
been completely knocked offline by AI scrapers. It finally just

1607
01:39:26,359 --> 01:39:28,743
bit the dust this week. It's been limping along. But

1608
01:39:28,803 --> 01:39:31,448
it just gets hammered all the time because they're getting

1609
01:39:31,528 --> 01:39:35,255
constantly crawled and ingested and they don't have the technical

1610
01:39:35,315 --> 01:39:38,231
expertise to be able to deal with that. And so

1611
01:39:38,251 --> 01:39:41,150
I know that. this new era we're in with a

1612
01:39:41,372 --> 01:39:43,713
because i see the same thing that that adam does

1613
01:39:43,774 --> 01:39:47,604
i see Claude Code. When I use it, sometimes I

1614
01:39:47,665 --> 01:39:51,935
see it. just morphing its user agent to impersonate other

1615
01:39:51,975 --> 01:39:57,515
stuff until finally something works. And so, like... I guess

1616
01:39:57,536 --> 01:40:00,754
I've made... I've made the best argument I can for

1617
01:40:00,855 --> 01:40:04,472
it. And I don't think it'll go any further than

1618
01:40:04,552 --> 01:40:06,596
it already has. I think this is a complete wash

1619
01:40:06,616 --> 01:40:08,640
and it's going to be, it's not, it's just going

1620
01:40:08,660 --> 01:40:12,548
to die on the vine. But it, at least we

1621
01:40:12,608 --> 01:40:17,337
had the discussion and, you know, we can actually make

1622
01:40:17,397 --> 01:40:21,244
a decision. And it may become something in the future

1623
01:40:21,264 --> 01:40:25,307
that we hold in. to the side and say At

1624
01:40:25,327 --> 01:40:28,515
some point in the future, the ecosystem becomes so threatened

1625
01:40:29,157 --> 01:40:32,485
by malicious traffic or impersonated traffic that we do have

1626
01:40:32,505 --> 01:40:34,530
to blow the dust off this thing and actually do

1627
01:40:34,610 --> 01:40:36,695
something. And I go back to the apps. We don't

1628
01:40:36,755 --> 01:40:40,114
often hear from the... larger apps right that really would

1629
01:40:40,134 --> 01:40:42,735
be impacted by this and if if you make it

1630
01:40:43,155 --> 01:40:45,607
useful for them to do and they see the value

1631
01:40:45,668 --> 01:40:47,497
in it, then I think that's something that we can

1632
01:40:47,537 --> 01:40:50,311
now say, okay, both sides agree on this. This makes

1633
01:40:50,352 --> 01:40:53,508
a lot of sense. Yeah, and I think you're right

1634
01:40:53,548 --> 01:40:56,186
about that, and that's why I was very sensitive to

1635
01:40:56,226 --> 01:40:59,889
making sure that we understand. that we're actually talking about

1636
01:40:59,909 --> 01:41:03,791
the real thing and not just talking about fears of

1637
01:41:03,912 --> 01:41:08,193
things. Because if we're just talking about being scared about

1638
01:41:08,213 --> 01:41:12,606
something that sounds like it might be a problem. I

1639
01:41:12,626 --> 01:41:18,135
don't think that actually... communicates the real benefit of the

1640
01:41:18,195 --> 01:41:21,155
thing. You know, I just want everybody to actually be

1641
01:41:21,195 --> 01:41:26,707
talking about the reality and not the fear. I really

1642
01:41:26,748 --> 01:41:32,142
need to stop this. I had a rebut to that,

1643
01:41:32,444 --> 01:41:35,964
but I'll stop. No, please rebut. Rebut me. Well, I

1644
01:41:36,004 --> 01:41:38,519
think all of this is based on fear now, right?

1645
01:41:38,499 --> 01:41:42,901
I think. That's fair. That's fair, by the way. And

1646
01:41:42,921 --> 01:41:46,763
a lot of it is, I've... I, me as a

1647
01:41:47,285 --> 01:41:49,873
hosting company, right? I have a model that is great,

1648
01:41:49,993 --> 01:41:52,862
right? I have a margin that makes me a very

1649
01:41:52,902 --> 01:41:56,433
good living and I can afford multiple people, right? And

1650
01:41:56,493 --> 01:41:58,782
like, we've figured this formula out. I pay this. much

1651
01:41:58,823 --> 01:42:02,670
for bandwidth and I charge my customers this. Video throws

1652
01:42:02,731 --> 01:42:08,753
a wrench into that. Right? And so... The question is

1653
01:42:08,833 --> 01:42:12,964
like, even before it happens, right? I've heard a lot,

1654
01:42:13,045 --> 01:42:15,511
even before a lot of people had their implementations, I've

1655
01:42:15,531 --> 01:42:16,935
heard a lot of people saying, oh, we can't, you

1656
01:42:16,955 --> 01:42:19,109
know, this is, it's very interesting. What will other people

1657
01:42:19,190 --> 01:42:22,940
do? What can we afford to do? And that sort

1658
01:42:22,980 --> 01:42:24,128
of thing. So I think a lot of, and again,

1659
01:42:24,148 --> 01:42:27,028
there's companies that do not filter today, right? In fact,

1660
01:42:27,169 --> 01:42:29,734
no one really does. And I just think we should

1661
01:42:29,754 --> 01:42:31,600
be in the position of always saying, like, let's get

1662
01:42:31,620 --> 01:42:34,528
this out there as open as possible and not and

1663
01:42:34,649 --> 01:42:36,875
wait to see what happens. Right. Wait to see actual

1664
01:42:36,935 --> 01:42:40,953
abuse coming in. from crawlers. I doubt there are crawlers

1665
01:42:41,013 --> 01:42:44,616
that even parse HLS, right? There's very few. And whether

1666
01:42:44,656 --> 01:42:46,290
they know to go to the podcast feed, go to

1667
01:42:46,330 --> 01:42:49,965
the alternate enclosure, and then download. something that would even

1668
01:42:50,006 --> 01:42:52,485
be noticeable, right? Which again, we're talking about the video

1669
01:42:52,505 --> 01:42:55,476
segments. I'm not sure that that's the case, right? And

1670
01:42:55,536 --> 01:42:57,732
I'd be willing to let's get the data that we

1671
01:42:57,772 --> 01:43:00,729
have out in the open. and know what we're tackling

1672
01:43:00,789 --> 01:43:03,686
instead of kind of the fear of something that yes

1673
01:43:03,806 --> 01:43:06,929
videos are a lot larger But let's take a look

1674
01:43:06,970 --> 01:43:09,328
at what's actually happening before we start to make any

1675
01:43:09,550 --> 01:43:13,109
decisions. And again, that goes to fear. Yeah, I think

1676
01:43:13,150 --> 01:43:16,568
that's very fair. I'm a fear Dave's going to be

1677
01:43:16,628 --> 01:43:20,316
late to his day job. Oh, sorry, Dave. I'm very

1678
01:43:20,356 --> 01:43:23,342
afeard of this. Okay. No, I think, I think that's

1679
01:43:23,382 --> 01:43:25,648
a good way to end it, John. And, and maybe

1680
01:43:25,688 --> 01:43:29,597
the best way to move forward. If somebody, if, if

1681
01:43:29,637 --> 01:43:32,464
the hosting companies really think this is, is something valuable

1682
01:43:32,484 --> 01:43:35,572
is for them to put out some data, some numbers

1683
01:43:35,813 --> 01:43:38,419
that, that detail the abuse so that we can all.

1684
01:43:38,399 --> 01:43:42,071
sort of appreciate the scale and then make appropriate decisions.

1685
01:43:43,547 --> 01:43:45,463
I think that's a good way to end it. Yep.

1686
01:43:46,779 --> 01:43:49,431
Okay, do we have time to thank some people, Dave?

1687
01:43:49,755 --> 01:43:52,919
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. What is this? Is this a...

1688
01:43:53,467 --> 01:43:56,881
Free Friday for you? Yeah, I don't have to go

1689
01:43:56,921 --> 01:43:59,965
back to the office. Oh, oh. Okay, if I'd known

1690
01:44:00,005 --> 01:44:01,916
that, I would have let you yammer on for another

1691
01:44:01,936 --> 01:44:05,670
15 minutes about all this stuff. No, that's good. I

1692
01:44:07,213 --> 01:44:10,019
think everything that needed to be said was said. Do

1693
01:44:10,059 --> 01:44:11,923
you feel that way, John? Like Dave was saying, yeah,

1694
01:44:12,084 --> 01:44:13,507
what's cool is that this is being done in the

1695
01:44:13,587 --> 01:44:16,273
open. I would invite everyone to go to the GitHub

1696
01:44:16,333 --> 01:44:19,824
thread. Excuse me, it's Chatham House Rules. You can't talk

1697
01:44:19,885 --> 01:44:24,129
about this after the podcast is over. Well, that's the

1698
01:44:24,169 --> 01:44:26,253
thing. I actually, I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical,

1699
01:44:26,313 --> 01:44:29,179
but like those threads, one of the audiences, I feel

1700
01:44:29,199 --> 01:44:31,003
like now every time I put something into the GitHub

1701
01:44:31,043 --> 01:44:34,169
thread, the audience is like current and future Claude's, right?

1702
01:44:34,230 --> 01:44:36,855
It's like, I want to make sure that like this

1703
01:44:36,915 --> 01:44:38,819
is on the record, right? This argument is out there.

1704
01:44:38,827 --> 01:44:41,011
Not for necessarily people that are reading it now, but

1705
01:44:41,031 --> 01:44:43,315
like, hey, at the time, some people were thinking about

1706
01:44:43,335 --> 01:44:46,500
this. And that gets ingested as part of the summary.

1707
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:50,306
I can confirm the robot definitely can read GitHub and

1708
01:44:50,347 --> 01:44:54,093
make decisions. I can confirm that. Because it just updated

1709
01:44:54,153 --> 01:44:56,297
mine. So there we go. And if you take a

1710
01:44:56,317 --> 01:44:58,991
look at the app, you'll see the feedback. from the

1711
01:44:59,474 --> 01:45:01,326
hosting side is a lot different than the feedback from

1712
01:45:01,346 --> 01:45:03,440
the app side. No kidding. And I think that means

1713
01:45:04,064 --> 01:45:08,057
something. We want to thank Salty Crayon for his row

1714
01:45:08,097 --> 01:45:11,348
of ducks, 22-22. He says, howdy, Dave and Adam. I

1715
01:45:11,368 --> 01:45:15,735
was considering stopping altogether. Until all the positive and optimistic

1716
01:45:15,836 --> 01:45:18,276
tech info was brought to this meeting by Adam in

1717
01:45:18,336 --> 01:45:20,977
regards to... to the index in the future of P2.0.

1718
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:25,720
This gave me a recharge. Thanks, Dave and Adam. You're

1719
01:45:25,741 --> 01:45:30,589
welcome. I'm happy to hear that. 1111 from Martin Lindeskog.

1720
01:45:30,629 --> 01:45:33,383
He says, to Dave. This is coming in from true

1721
01:45:33,403 --> 01:45:35,538
fans. I refuse to join any club that would have

1722
01:45:35,598 --> 01:45:40,262
me as a member. Groucho Marx. Yes, indeed. 1776 from

1723
01:45:40,383 --> 01:45:43,477
Martin Luther Kogut. I'm happy to join Adam's Accord today.

1724
01:45:43,537 --> 01:45:45,164
I asked a guy on LinkedIn if he knew about

1725
01:45:45,225 --> 01:45:49,574
podcasting initiative. What is the podcasting initiative? He worked for

1726
01:45:49,695 --> 01:45:53,165
Klang AI. I will test out the transcript service for

1727
01:45:53,185 --> 01:45:56,735
a forthcoming podcast about the Orison region. That's the greater

1728
01:45:56,795 --> 01:45:59,903
Copenhagen region. We will talk both in Danish and Swedish,

1729
01:46:00,025 --> 01:46:03,616
okay? and he sends a 1701 he's funding the show

1730
01:46:03,696 --> 01:46:07,542
today testing testing go podcasting starship boostagram of 1701 uh

1731
01:46:09,225 --> 01:46:14,975
let's see we got uh 33 3330 from na millennial

1732
01:46:15,035 --> 01:46:17,682
from fountain thank you for the podcast index api Claude

1733
01:46:17,743 --> 01:46:21,739
complimented its design. I'm sure it's great. Hashtag vibe coding.

1734
01:46:22,159 --> 01:46:28,842
No. Mike Newman, 17,776, boosting from the Bitcoin Valley. Stay

1735
01:46:28,903 --> 01:46:33,579
frosty, my friends. And with that, I hit the delimiter.

1736
01:46:34,799 --> 01:46:39,104
I've got a boostergram that I missed. from Martin Lindeskoog

1737
01:46:39,225 --> 01:46:43,052
last week. Did I miss it too? I think so,

1738
01:46:43,072 --> 01:46:46,087
because he sent it to me in email. He said,

1739
01:46:46,147 --> 01:46:52,393
Dave, yes, this is 9252 Satoshis. He said, Dave, yes,

1740
01:46:52,414 --> 01:46:55,474
had a ball with Mike Newman. Co-listening and chatting, maybe

1741
01:46:55,514 --> 01:46:58,300
I should drink some moonshine or whiskey next time. It

1742
01:46:58,340 --> 01:47:02,589
turns out that a kinesiologist in Gothenburg is also a

1743
01:47:02,749 --> 01:47:06,997
whiskey collector. Maybe I will get him starting a podcast

1744
01:47:07,037 --> 01:47:09,462
on whiskey with a twist. Going back to Mike, I'm

1745
01:47:09,522 --> 01:47:11,566
happy to be on the leaderboard for the Mike Newman

1746
01:47:11,606 --> 01:47:16,636
Show. I've listened to the podcast for three hours, 37

1747
01:47:16,937 --> 01:47:20,914
minutes, and paid $90,000. 252 satoshis cheers Okay, so I

1748
01:47:20,954 --> 01:47:27,620
think that was some streams. Streaming sets. Money. Yeah. Um,

1749
01:47:28,071 --> 01:47:30,348
You got some more, let's see, you got some PayPals.

1750
01:47:30,389 --> 01:47:34,741
You got Mark Van Patten. MVP. Thank you, MVP. He's

1751
01:47:35,407 --> 01:47:38,550
the end of show mixes for No Agenda. He said,

1752
01:47:38,571 --> 01:47:41,351
I listened to the Adam Accord segment with a stupid

1753
01:47:41,371 --> 01:47:45,401
smirk on my face. Adam Accord. Not because it was

1754
01:47:45,461 --> 01:47:47,654
stupid, but because you guys were just nailing it. V

1755
01:47:47,674 --> 01:47:52,265
for V, baby. Yeah, yay. Let's see. We've got Cameron

1756
01:47:52,305 --> 01:47:56,286
Rose, 25 bucks. Thank you, Cameron. Thank you, Cameron. Ralph

1757
01:47:56,307 --> 01:48:02,300
Estep. $50. Thank you, Ralph. Appreciate you. Martin Lindesko, there's

1758
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:05,890
one buck from Martin. Brendan Mulligan at Podpage, 25 bucks.

1759
01:48:05,911 --> 01:48:11,545
Thank you, Brendan. Joseph Marocca, $5. Oh, look. It's Oscar

1760
01:48:11,565 --> 01:48:18,035
Mary, $200. Baller, shot caller, 20-inch blaze on the Impala.

1761
01:48:18,115 --> 01:48:23,068
Thank you. Thank you. That is, yes, that's it for

1762
01:48:23,109 --> 01:48:26,768
the PayPals. And we do have some boost. We do

1763
01:48:26,808 --> 01:48:30,109
have one booster gram. One. In addition to what you

1764
01:48:30,190 --> 01:48:37,476
read. And that's CSB, 25,000 sats. Nice. Through Fountain, he

1765
01:48:37,536 --> 01:48:40,937
says. Howdy Dave and Adam. Today I'd like to recommend

1766
01:48:40,977 --> 01:48:44,313
a podcast called No Agenda, where Adam Curry is chatting

1767
01:48:44,394 --> 01:48:49,334
with half Polish, half Czech guy called Dvorak. Dvorak's mom

1768
01:48:49,414 --> 01:48:51,659
literally had a Polish passport so he could get a

1769
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:56,632
Polish passport too, if only he wanted. 25% ancestry is

1770
01:48:56,692 --> 01:49:00,907
enough. He has 50%. Fun fact. Many years ago, Dvorak

1771
01:49:00,967 --> 01:49:04,056
gave me an interview for my now discontinued podcast, but

1772
01:49:04,097 --> 01:49:07,447
you two are stonewalling me. Shame on you. Yo, CSB

1773
01:49:07,547 --> 01:49:12,843
AI arch wizard. *Gasps* Stonewalling, yes. I gotta do that.

1774
01:49:13,024 --> 01:49:16,162
I gotta do that. I gotta do it. I got

1775
01:49:16,182 --> 01:49:17,743
to do it too. I'm just trying to clear the

1776
01:49:17,784 --> 01:49:22,844
decks. Wow, what a board meeting. I'm wiped. Yeah, I

1777
01:49:22,864 --> 01:49:26,231
was hot in here. There's no AC. Sorry about that.

1778
01:49:26,391 --> 01:49:28,837
Do you guys do this every week? No AC? This

1779
01:49:28,937 --> 01:49:32,605
is crazy. Well, my studio is AC supplied, but quiet.

1780
01:49:33,326 --> 01:49:35,651
Oh. The way it should be. Hey, John, thank you

1781
01:49:35,691 --> 01:49:37,836
so much for being here today, man. We really appreciate

1782
01:49:37,876 --> 01:49:40,604
it. Yeah, it was fun. Yes. Thank you for what

1783
01:49:40,644 --> 01:49:43,837
you do with op3.dev and just all the contributions. It's

1784
01:49:43,878 --> 01:49:47,854
really appreciated. And I hope we can keep the data

1785
01:49:47,894 --> 01:49:51,251
collective moving forward. Yeah, I like the idea. You need

1786
01:49:51,312 --> 01:49:54,423
a fancy marketing site where the background moves around as

1787
01:49:54,463 --> 01:49:57,073
you move the mouse cursor around. Yeah, I'm not going

1788
01:49:57,113 --> 01:50:00,024
to do any of that. No. No, we're not going

1789
01:50:00,044 --> 01:50:02,455
to do any of that. We're just going to get

1790
01:50:02,515 --> 01:50:05,066
it going one way or the other. But ultimately, these

1791
01:50:05,127 --> 01:50:09,972
things are up to Dave. No pressure. No pressure. I

1792
01:50:09,992 --> 01:50:13,041
think it's a very, very interesting idea. And I think

1793
01:50:13,503 --> 01:50:15,389
I like the idea of building it and getting it

1794
01:50:15,449 --> 01:50:17,676
out there. And that will attract sort of like, hey,

1795
01:50:17,696 --> 01:50:21,592
this is really. interesting and at least it's an example

1796
01:50:21,632 --> 01:50:24,043
that other people can take a look at. So I

1797
01:50:24,084 --> 01:50:26,254
really like the idea. I wouldn't mind if you built

1798
01:50:26,294 --> 01:50:29,938
it. That'd be fine for me too. No, I'm serious.

1799
01:50:30,038 --> 01:50:32,584
I mean, it doesn't have to all be Dave. I'm

1800
01:50:32,624 --> 01:50:35,752
just saying it's, there's, that was just my initial thought.

1801
01:50:35,792 --> 01:50:38,318
It's like, oh, it makes sense. Here we are. As

1802
01:50:38,398 --> 01:50:40,751
I said, it's... comes down to trust. A lot of

1803
01:50:40,791 --> 01:50:44,316
these apps would fall apart if we didn't exist. Yeah,

1804
01:50:44,336 --> 01:50:46,723
let's keep thinking about it. It's a very interesting idea.

1805
01:50:46,743 --> 01:50:49,270
All right. Dave, my brother, thank you so much, man,

1806
01:50:49,371 --> 01:50:51,798
as always. Good to catch up with you. Yeah, good

1807
01:50:51,838 --> 01:50:53,864
to catch up with you. You've had two great ideas

1808
01:50:53,904 --> 01:50:57,615
in two weeks in a row. You know what it

1809
01:50:57,735 --> 01:51:05,659
is? Testosterone. testosterone testosterone hot tea hot tea everybody hey

1810
01:51:05,819 --> 01:51:08,407
boardroom thank you for being here we'll be back friday

1811
01:51:08,447 --> 01:51:21,548
with more of your podcasting 2.0 you you you you

1812
01:51:27,311 --> 01:51:34,120
You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for

1813
01:51:34,220 --> 01:51:41,265
more information. Go podcasting! We have the true data and

1814
01:51:41,326 --> 01:51:42,299
you're full of shit.